IB Made an Error. Will They Fix It?

Wow.

Not that this helps, but I had some 1245s, actually on both sides Friday. I always cut those around a buck or two on the last day if we are very close to the money. I dribbled out those 1245 calls in the last hour from 2.50 down to about a dollar.

Part of the issue is not having to deal with the futures come Sunday if we should gap on news. There's also the potential for having to deal with sloppy and partial assignments. Sometimes those involuntary executions in your account are IB moving in to clean up, although these transactions sound like they are going the other way.

Good to see IB is on the job.
 
KTM,

Yeah, I hear ya on cleaning up those ATMs. From now on I'm closing my positions the right way! I've never been near my margin limits and I don't think I've ever seen them moving things around in my account. Needless to say when I saw the additional 11K down and some liquidation trades in my account I thought somebody hacked my password.

On a positive note IB has already reinstated my liquidated options positions. They sent me an email stating they are in the process of reversing my additional short 10 ES at 1245. I'm pleased at the manner and speed they exhibited in resolving this problem.


This brings me back to the original short 10 ES which caused the 6300 dollar loss. I'm hoping to hear back from them soon on that can of worms...
 
I'm still waiting for a response from IB regarding the initial 6300 dollar loss I incurred due to their options exercise assignment mistake.

I had another issue today with my account that I'd like to share with you. Here's the background. In this specific account I only trade futures and futures options. The only positions I have open are 2 debit spreads (1 call and 1 put) of say a 20 lot in size.

Now, to my knowledge a futures option positions is identical to a futures position in that it only requires margin to sustain. Specifically, you don't buy the long contracts as in the sense of equity options and have to lay out cash. You only have to have the margin on hand to support the position.

The reason I mention this is because I tried to close a short leg of the put debit spread today while leaving the rest of the positions on. I clicked check margin on the order ticket and viewed that I had over 5 times the "Equity with Loan" value to support the "Initial Margin" for the ticket. However, the ticket returned a insufficient funds message when I attempted to send it.

I spoke with IB customer service (2 different agents) for over an hour. They just kept repeating that my "Total Cash Value" in my account was almost nothing and not enough to support the closing of the short puts. They recommended I close the long side too.

The problem is:

1. I didn't want to close my long puts

and

2. I shouldn't have to close my long puts

My account is showing all of my cash tied up in holding the Futures Options positions. It is here where I think the error is. IB has obviously been fidgeting with my account over the past few days to fix the doubled transaction they did on Monday. I think they screwed up my account values so I don't have any free liquidity to use.

To prove this can someone please tell me if I'm right or wrong in my thinking that I should be able to support this position (closing the short puts) as long as my "Net Liquidation Value" is higher than my margin? I strongly believe so because I've been trading under this premise for the past 3 years.

I still want to believe in IB but I've definitely lost a lot of faith in their customer service. I spoke with two individuals for a good while trying to convince them that I had the margin. They just said I needed to put more money in the account. They couldn't tell me why I didn't have enough cash to support the margin for the transaction. They finally agreed to have a manager call me. Meanwhile the AUG 1250 Puts have gained a 1.50 from when I initally wanted to buy them back. Another 1500 on the table thanks to IB. I surely hope they get this back to me too however, I'm not optimistic considering I'm still waiting for a response on the initial 6300.
 
I still want to believe in IB but I've definitely lost a lot of faith in their customer service. I spoke with two individuals for a good while trying to convince them that I had the margin. They just said I needed to put more money in the account.
More...
IB CS does not understand very well how margin requirements work, especially for FOP. They rely 100 per cent on "the system". Means from their point of view that system is always right and customer is always wrong.
 
I'm unfortunately learning that from experience Xenia. I'm sure that mentality works wonderfully for all the old men who call up that are upset because they pushed the wrong button.

However, it poses an absolute nightmare for people with legitimate problems that are caused by IB. I've never felt so hopeless than when IB is making a mistake and that they have no interest in doing anything but blaming me for it. This has happened 3 times in the last 3 days. Once for a loss of 1500 today. Twice on Monday, for a loss of 6300 and 10000.

I guess I should count myself lucky because the only incident they've corrected is the 10000 dollar one. They could of just fixed the 1500 incident and that would of been a real kick in the crotch...
 
Quote from cohenmichaela:

To begin, I don't want to sound like I'm bashing IB. I've been a customer of theirs for 3 years and have been happy in the past. This is the first major problem I've had with them. I just felt it would be a good idea to put it out in the public. This way it gives IB the opportunity to shine and do the right thing. The alternative is that I get screwed;)

Here's the situation.

Last Friday, July 21st, I was long 20 JUL ES 1250 Puts and short 20 JUL ES 1245 Puts. The closing price for the SEP ES was below 1245 (1244.50 I think).

So, obviously my 1245 strike is very close so I have some pin risk. I'm concerned about assignment because I don't want to wake up and be short 20 ES contracts. So as soon as Globex opens on Sunday night I check my account and it is flat with the expected profit from the debit spread showing as cash in my account. I then checked the official IB statement through my Account Management which shows that all 20 ES 1245 Puts were assigned and that I am indeed flat.

Now the plot thickens. I wake up Monday morning and I find to my surprise that I am short 10 ES contracts and the ES has now moved 12.5 points away from the 1245 strike I was supposed to be assigned at. After speaking with a gentleman from customer service he informs me that they made a mistake and I was only assigned on 10 of the 20 short 1245 Puts. He then recommended that I liquidate my unexpected position (which has now lost me over 6K) and open a ticket with them through their website. He said that after reviewing it (7-10 days) they should reimburse me.

Like I said, I'm not bashing IB. I understand mistakes will be made. I'm hoping IB will do the right thing in my mind and reimburse me for my loss. I feel this way not because I wasn't assigned on the 1245 Puts but because I was informed through my account and through my statement that I was indeed assigned and flat.

I'm sure there will be diehard IB fans out there that will tell me that just because my account and my statement show that I'm flat, it doesn't mean that I am. I won't have any argument for this because I don't see the logic in it. All I know is that my statement said I was flat as did my account. On Monday morning IB customer service tells me that "they" made an error and that I was only assigned on half my outstanding short 1245 Puts.

The key point here is that they made the error and therefore they should be liable for my loss in this situation. I do hope IB does the right thing because I would like to continue being a satisfied customer of theirs.
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I'm sorry that this has happened to you. Unfortunately, in this business, when an entity says "we'll get the money to you later", the money usually isn't coming. It's their way of shaking off a tackle, so to speak.
 
cohenmichaela,
If I understood you right, here is an answer. When you buy options, you should have enough cash to pay the premium. You cannot use other options value for it. If we allow it, you will have a potential to open unlimited amount of option positions and risk of your portfolio will be unrestricted. Margin has not much to do with it except you do of course increase additional margin when you close one leg of a spread.

Xenia,
Futures option margin is calculated by SPAN. A human (CS representative) cannot give a simple explanation of how it is done in reasonable time. Risk calculations are pretty much not human by nature. Please, read a bit about rules of SPAN to understand it. The information is available on CME site.
 
Quote from cohenmichaela:

I'm still waiting for a response from IB regarding the initial 6300 dollar loss I incurred due to their options exercise assignment mistake.
More...

Expect a response before the week is out. Usually takes a few days as they research things. At least in my experience.

I had another issue today with my account that I'd like to share with you. Here's the background. In this specific account I only trade futures and futures options. The only positions I have open are 2 debit spreads (1 call and 1 put) of say a 20 lot in size.

Now, to my knowledge a futures option positions is identical to a futures position in that it only requires margin to sustain. Specifically, you don't buy the long contracts as in the sense of equity options and have to lay out cash. You only have to have the margin on hand to support the position.

The reason I mention this is because I tried to close a short leg of the put debit spread today while leaving the rest of the positions on. I clicked check margin on the order ticket and viewed that I had over 5 times the "Equity with Loan" value to support the "Initial Margin" for the ticket. However, the ticket returned a insufficient funds message when I attempted to send it.

I spoke with IB customer service (2 different agents) for over an hour. They just kept repeating that my "Total Cash Value" in my account was almost nothing and not enough to support the closing of the short puts. They recommended I close the long side too.
More...

I don't think I understand 100% but I did notice a few things. (It's been quite a while since I traded equity and futures options). With futures, there is no such thing as margin... technically speaking. It's technically called a performance bond. I know you know that already. But in the above where I underlined, your use of the word margin can cause some confusion for others and yourself.

Equity with loan - does not apply to futures. For futures, net free cash (which IB calls "total cash value") is what counts. A performance bond is the cash you put up to initiate the position called initial margin. When the position's value falls below maintenance "margin" - meaning, the cash debited from your account falls to a certain amount- either a margin call or liquidation will ensue.

The problem is:

1. I didn't want to close my long puts

and

2. I shouldn't have to close my long puts


My account is showing all of my cash tied up in holding the Futures Options positions. It is here where I think the error is. IB has obviously been fidgeting with my account over the past few days to fix the doubled transaction they did on Monday. I think they screwed up my account values so I don't have any free liquidity to use.

To prove this can someone please tell me if I'm right or wrong in my thinking that I should be able to support this position (closing the short puts) as long as my "Net Liquidation Value" is higher than my margin? I strongly believe so because I've been trading under this premise for the past 3 years.
More...

In your situation, I think you might have to close out your longs. Or at least enough of them to bring in enough free cash. Your vertical Bear put spread - where you went long puts at a higher strike and short puts at a lower strike - is a, if you'll excuse the layman terminology, married position. The amount of premium collected (from short side) is offseting the amount of margin(perf bond) required for the long side. If you undo your shorts, then outright spec margin on the longs is required which is higher than spread/hedge margin.

Then again, my understanding could be completely screwed. Happens from time to time.

Amount available for futures @ IB is: Commodities available funds(aka cash) = Commodities net liquidation value - Commodities initial margin requirement.

and here's another kicker; Cash has to be greater than $2k in order to open a new position.

Found here on their website for reference:
http://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/trading/marginRequirements/fundamentals.php

If I'm wrong or misunderstanding your situtation, hopefully I at least laid down some food for thought. You know, to get you thinking towards a certain direction.


I still want to believe in IB but I've definitely lost a lot of faith in their customer service. I spoke with two individuals for a good while trying to convince them that I had the margin. They just said I needed to put more money in the account. They couldn't tell me why I didn't have enough cash to support the margin for the transaction. They finally agreed to have a manager call me. Meanwhile the AUG 1250 Puts have gained a 1.50 from when I initally wanted to buy them back. Another 1500 on the table thanks to IB. I surely hope they get this back to me too however, I'm not optimistic considering I'm still waiting for a response on the initial 6300. [/B]
More...

It's chaos for you right now. I know. And this is terrible. I can only wish you the best and speediest resolution.
 
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