IB HSI futures position data was incorrect- now i'm screwed. any recourse?

I've had several times were IB info was screwey....

1. Trade summary screen show i have position...i think im flat....ib says "dont look at the trade summary...could be wrong...check the account tab...at the bottom of the window it shows position & p&L of each instrument"


2. Trades tabs shows loss on a trade that was clearly profitable....ib says " yeah, we know about that problem...you have to add up all your executions to get the real days P&L'........are you f-ing kidding me?
 
LOL kiwi, you can support the guy if you want to, but everything I said is still true :D ... and as far as Price Physician is concerned, weeeellllll, how are those volume bars look'in, ol chap? :p
 
Quote from kiwi_trader:

LOL Go4,

My only objection to anything you said in your last post would be that its not proven that the data delay problem was IBs. It's very possible that the exchange had not confirmed the trades --- has that been checked?
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hey Kiwi.

hows the SPI and STW treating you?

i don't buy into th exchange delay scenario. if that was the case, how come the trade no longer showed in booktrader? if ib had no confirmation from the exchange, then i'd have had an existing order sitting there in book trader, and i'd have shown short 3 contracts. it would have been green, or maybe even the dreaded ambiguous light blue- but it would have still been there. if it had been, i, of course, would have had no need to put in another order. but it wasn't, i showed 3 short with no open orders- so i closed it.

how can they plausibly blame the exchange when IB's OWN PLATFORM, TWS, was showing no existing orders and no pending trades and me short 3 contracts when, in fact, i was flat. it looked like that for 10 seconds and then, confronted with the close, i closed the position since IB was telling me i still had one. of course, i did not and IB corrected this a few seconds later--- after i placed the trade to close, after the market closed- leaving me long 3 contracts.

when i had a mistake months ago, the input i got from IB management was to take care of it as if it were accurate and deal with adjustments later. i had an open position. i never leave open positions overnight- never. so, i acted to close the position.

yeah, i don't normally trade anywhere near that clsoe to the close. in this case, i was short, the market was running out of steam and poised to drop. it finally did within the last minute and i rode it as long as i could, leaving enough time to make sure i got out. i DID get out- 16 seconds b4 the close- tight, sure- but certainly not reckless and certainly plenty of time for an electronic transaction to show up- i've done 10's of thousands of trades- never b4 has it taken more than 15 seconds (or even more than 2 seconds) to reflect on my screen- until wed. night...

sorry, long winded reply.

btw, of course, i haven't heard back from IB today- even though i was promised a call by this morning...
 
Quote from MandelbrotSet:

Wow, you really hurt my feelings gangof4.

Just like you really hurt IB's feelings when you came on here saying how you were having the "worse day of the year" and trading into the last minutes of the close (never a good sign) with increased position size and there was a disconnect with IB's data feed and the real price of the security you were trading, and as a result you didn't know whether you should be short or long ... (I leave it to the readership to figure-out how smart you have to be to put yourself in this position).

When the market opened again you then proceeded to tell us how you were playing the "if I coulda I woulda I shoulda" game while still dealing with the psychological stress of your previously ill-concieved last minute trade (actually it was within the last twenty seconds ... yeah, plenty of time) while trying to rescue a situation which any professional would have just closed out of and taken stock of the damage ... instead you choose (yes, nobody made you continue to push the button, you choose to do so) to dig the hole deeper.

Hmmm, if it sounds like going on TILT, it smells like going on TILT and walks like going on TILT well then it is GOING ON TILT, just in case no one has ever seen it, this is what it looks like: "threw my phone, broke a mirror (oops) and then walked away for a few minutes" ...

... the thing is you're still trying to claim IB is at fault here, just like some other guy is trying to claim that IB is at fault when he was shorting an incredible uptrend in the grains, and another guy is trying to claim they are at fault for taking him out of a stock (short) that went against him for thousands of dollars (margin call, close the position) only to of course, have the stock turn around and drop in favor of his trade, etc., etc., etc. (man, I wonder if they ever get tired of it).

Hey speaking of which, if the HSI had gapped up 1000 pts (like I was hoping it would for you btw) and you had made a mint out of this thing, would you stil be "seeking recourse" against Interative Brokers?

Nah buddy, you've got it wrong on all accounts:
a) I'm not the asshole here ...
b) Interactive Brokers didn't screw you with your "last 20 seconds of the session trade", and
c) You obviously weren't in your right mind when you compounded your orginal loss by another 35% (well, maybe to kiwi trader you were).

And as far as your "profitability" is concerned, it was luck that your mishap caught you at this end of your trading cycle, not skill. You could just as easily have shot yourself in the foot at the beginning of the year and be looking at an uphill climb from here.
***
Speaking of luck, I hope you have it with your search for your magical broker which will absolve you of all responsibility with your trading actions from this point forward in your gambling career.

The way you go at it, I'm sure they'll be lining up at your door.
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when you kick at somebody when they're down, you're a dick. you're either disconnected from reality/stupid to not understand how your condescending post was inflammatory and would piss me off or.... you were trying to piss me off. either way, you're a dick. this is not 'name calling'- this is stating fact.

to psychoanalyze my trading mentality was pompous and in very poor taste. to deride me because a data error caused to me lose $14000 is a fine insight into what kind of an individual you are.

as to trading ability. i would be more than willing to bet real money that, since i started trading futures full time on 01 june 2007, i have outperformed you. prior to wednesday, i could count the # of down days i've had in the past 5 months on one hand. i am very disciplined. much of what you wrote in your post is incorrect- you failed to properly read and/or comprehend what the problem was and the timeline of events. i did not size up because i was down. what i said is that, in the bad timing category, it jsut so happened that wed. was the day i decided to finally size up. if you've ever done this, it is tough to move from your comfort zone, but necessary to move to the next level. it was just inopportune timing. if not for this, the point was, this problem would have been with being long 1 HSI, maybe 2- not 3.

why i wasted the time to respond to you, i don't know...
 
Quote from kiwi_trader:

The phrase "pretentious wanker" comes to mind here.
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exactly what i was thinking when readying his other condescending posts. thanks.
 
since i said i'd post the final figures, i will. mandle-whatever will, of course, pounce on it- like i care.

i ended up down a bit over $15m- so, about 2m more than the loss from the error derived 3 contract long position.

frankly, i was trying too hard to 'get it back'. part of this was stupidity, part was because i will be having these results audited, and i was loathe to have to show such a large draw down. thought i could trade out of it- most days i may have, but the afternoon session in the HSI was brutal for my method. i also didn't want to alter my long thought out plan to size up just because of a bad trading day thursday (ie:wed night) and the IB error.

throw it all together, and i am obviously showing a much larger draw down now. reality though, is that i lost $2m trading- not a happy thing, but no big deal. the afternoon session loss was ugly though and, well, stupid. frankly, given the increased size, the fact that i was pressing to try to get back the $14m, and the horrible action (for me) in the afternoon session... it's almost a win to be down only another 2m total on the day.

so, sunday, i will be back at it, still sized up (can't let adversity detour me from my plan), but hopefully not pressing so hard to get back the now nearly $25m that has left my account in the past 2 trading days. i'm not going to make it back in a day; so i jsut gotta go back to trading normal, not over-trade, and i'll get it back in a couple of weeks.

that said- this is not over. even though IB has still not called @ 5pm est, i am not just letting this go. the orders have no execution id's and it's clear something wasn't working right. i have my screen shots and ib is going to have to work with me to find some sort of palatable resolution that doesn't involve me taking a $14m hit on my own. i'll update this thread as events warrant...
 
First, I want to honor gang4 for his quite mature understanding of the subject.

However, honestly, I don't think it is time for IB to compensate the loss.

Those "late fills" by HKFE have been an issue for years, are known by traders and are fully covered by IB's terms&conditions, putting responsibility for the subject on the customers side.

Despite that IB's terms&conditions will keep most losses away from IB, I know, they give credit where it is due.
When IB clearly causes an error, they will compensate it, probably most times.

A seconds, even minutes late fill caused by a volume surge is to be considered "business as usual".


Greetings
 
Anybody with a measure of trader kindness will surely sympathize with your situation. I might add a couple of comments on this with no self aggrandizing sardonics.

I trade many markets with IB, many trades a day, and I habitually bring up the "Audit" (expanded) to view the confirmation #'s and other details. I have it hot keyed and have been known to check it 50 or more times a day. It is my initial defense in representing a situation with IB and, in saving it, resides on my computer. You may have well done this but it seems to me you relied more on the Book trader and P/L logs. One would think that they would all match but I have seen peculiarities. If the exchange was late in reporting, the audit would show where the trade was hanging in the Place/Acknowledged/Comfirmed/Filled sequence. You might have made a different decision wth this info.
The other thing is is if you continue trading this contract and by some miracle you get the 3 buys cancelled and reversed...all subsequent trades will be reverse offset leaving you with a potentially greater headache.

Good luck..
 
Quote from local_crusher:

First, I want to honor gang4 for his quite mature understanding of the subject.

However, honestly, I don't think it is time for IB to compensate the loss.

Those "late fills" by HKFE have been an issue for years, are known by traders and are fully covered by IB's terms&conditions, putting responsibility for the subject on the customers side.

Despite that IB's terms&conditions will keep most losses away from IB, I know, they give credit where it is due.
When IB clearly causes an error, they will compensate it, probably most times.

A seconds, even minutes late fill caused by a volume surge is to be considered "business as usual".


Greetings
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i don't think it was a late fill- that's actually my point. it got filled, part of IB's platform knew it, part was incorrect. if it was a late fill, it would have still shown as an order pending- it didn't. in fact, as soon as i bought the last 3, (you see it and you also hear it with that execution 'click') it immediately showed me flat- no positions. wasn't until after the close that the 3 long showed up.

Def's post about a surge in volume and vol in the last few seconds is comical. anyone who trades the HSI or HHI.HK knows the action in the last minute thursday (wed night for me) was par for the course. he said:

"There was a lot of action in the final seconds yesterday and it's possible we got a late confirm from the exchange clearing database. HHI for instance dropped 20 points over the last 2-3 seconds."

GMAFB. the HHI.HK moves 20 points almost EVERY 2 to 3 seconds!! seriously. the trade was in the HSI and neither had unusual volume.

to me it can only be an IB problem because: i showed no pending trades/unfilled or open orders- yet i showed a net -3 position in both booktrader and the regular screen. in reality, everything about that was correct- except the -3 position showing. iow, IB knew there was a trade, knew it was executed (that takes the exchange off the hook), yet their system was incorrectly showing me short 3.

bottom line is that, seeing that i was short 3, if i hadn't done a trade to close it, IB would have said (rightly so), 'if you saw a position and no pending trades, why didn't you close it?'. i did the right thing- i closed the position.

i guess we'll see if my acct is large enough and/or i generate enough in commissions for them to be motivated to do the right thing. i can tell you that i do substantially more in commissions in a year, hell, in a quarter, than the $14m.

like i said, we'll see...
 
Hi, gangof4

Just read this. My condolence to your loss. I still have memory of your last hedge of unclosed position of HSI with STW. Understanding STW has been much stronger due to the stepping down of the unpopular current leader. But did you consider hedging with SGXNK, it was in line with HSI and the margin level is relatively low. The ideal hedge is 1:2, you could short 1-2 contracts of SGXNK and partially hedge the position. I think there are also options of SGXNK, if you use it to hedge the margin level was even lower.

Regard the issue you described in the original post, I had similar experience recently. I closed one position in HSI and the position number on the TWS was unchanged. Then the TWs pinked out. I grabbed the phone and called IB, they confirmed that the position had been closed. Luckily it was long before the close of the day. From then on , they were several similar incidence and I know there may be 1-20 seconds delay on the excecution report of tWS nowadays. It was 1-3 seconds before.

I set up a new rule for my HSi trading. Close all my position 5 minutes before close, and if I have to hold the position into the last minute, use market orders to close it , and don't care about the TWS trade report/position number in that last minute.
 
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