IB customers lose $88m trading WTI crude

[beefcaketrade]

$88M is not the net losses (differences between winners and losers)
It is the total of negative balances in IB accounts as a result of trades in these markets.
The losing customers lost a lot more than that for sure.
Any winning accounts are irrelevant to IB.

Yeah in the press release statement it says it's $88M aggregate loss, so it seems to be net of whatever NAV clients had.

In the CNBC interview though, TP said his clients held 15% of the open interest and says his clients lost $88M and estimated other brokers to have clients sitting on $500M losses elsewhere. So given that information it would seem $88M could also be the loss from the shorts (88/588 =15%)? I dunno. That or the clients that lost were all small guys, so net of NAV or just summation of losing positions end up being around $88M both ways?

Either way it's interesting if the winners were also at the same brokerage. Basically becomes a redistribution of wealth, kinda. Except it's not the losing traders paying for the winners if they declare insolvency due to catastrophic losses.

 

[southall]

i guess question is: given the magnitude of these losses, and the speed and the way it all went down, is your capital safe if you got money in any of the rinky dink fcms?

In the UK with IB we are covered for $200K. About $100K each for a joint account. Just like money at the bank.

I have an account with AMP US as well, i wouldnt put more than $20K into it. That only a tiny percentage of my net worth.

 

[beefcaketrade]

In the UK with IB we are covered for $200K. About $100K each for a joint account. Just like money at the bank.

I have an account with AMP US as well, i wouldnt put more than $20K into it. That only a tiny percentage of my net worth. Tops i wouldnt put more than 5% of my net worth into any of the rinky dink fcms.

Are holdings in futures/commodities brokers protected by FDIC or SIPC or similar? I thought SIPC doesn't protect against cash held for commodity futures trading? Usually it's just stock equity positions that are protected right? Should be similar in most places I'd imagine.

 

[southall]

Are holdings in futures/commodities brokers protected by FDIC or SIPC or similar? I thought SIPC doesn't protect against cash held for commodity futures trading? Usually it's just stock equity positions that are protected right? Should be similar in most places I'd imagine.

I dont think the UK differentiates. Even spread betting accounts should be covered as long as the firm is regulated by the FCA.
The FCA has strict segregation rules as well, because they will be the ones on the hook. Tighter than those in the US.

 

[hafez50]

I was about to say Amp email sounded like a panic . TRADE RESPONSIBLY. There margins so aggressive . I wonder if they got hurt?As i recall IB sweeps all cash to Sipc insured accounts even if you trade futures. Maybe somebody can comment on this.

 

[southall]

I was about to say Amp email sounded like a panic . TRADE RESPONSIBLY. There margins so aggressive . I wonder if they got hurt?As i recall IB sweeps all cash to Sipc insured accounts even if you trade futures. Maybe somebody can comment on this.

Yeah i got those emails from AMP too. I got $600 with AMP at the moment, just opened my account a few weeks ago. Im not planning to send anymore until im confident they didnt blow up.

As for SIPC sweep, no one is really sure if that will work in reality, not sure if its ever been tested. SIPC might not agree to payout if the account was mainly used for futures trading.

 

[southall]

Correct me if im wrong, I dont think anyone has ever lost money in a FCM account in the US. I think everyone at MF Global would have been made hole. Some took early 95% payouts but could have waited for 100%.

Has there ever been any other FCM where clients lost money due to the firm blowing up?

I know these are unprecedented times and that clean record could end, but even then i would hope people get the majority of their money back.

 

[ScroogeMcDuck]

The more I look into what happened, the more I think someone set this up.

1. WBSK20 is cash settled based on the CLK20 settlement price of negative $37.

2. That price of CLK20 happened to be very, very near the session low of negative $40 a barrel.

3. After reaching that negative price, CLK20 quickly recovered to positive $9 a barrel before trading stopped.

4. WBSK20 apparently went into limit down on 4/20/20, my data provider's session low is negative $7. That means brokers were likely unable to liquidate their clients and forced to hold into expiration.

5. CL volume already shifted from May to June, so easier to influence CLK20 price on 4/20/20.

I believe some people knew these mechanics very well and were sitting on a big WBSK20 short position and drove down the price of CLK20 just at the right time relevant for determining WBSK20 cash settlement price. According to Peterffy, they made half a billion $ on this trade.

All cash settled futures are vulnerable to this. You could exploit the exploiter by putting some big hidden limit orders outside the normal range on the physical futures to catch a flash crash like that. But then you might end up with a lot of oil to pick up. Presumably those rights could be transferred to someone who actually wants the oil, for a better price than -$40/bbl.

 

[snowman80]

Correct me if im wrong, I dont think anyone has ever lost money in a FCM account in the US. I think everyone at MF Global would have been made hole. Some took early 95% payouts but could have waited for 100%.

Has there ever been any other FCM where clients lost money due to the firm blowing up?

I know these are unprecedented times and that clean record could end, but even then i would hope people get the majority of their money back.

PFGBest comes to mind

recovery was less than 50% if i recall correctly

 

[NewTraderAdventure]

I watched CL trade on ameritrade, which handled the neg # perfectly.

If it was manipulation to pin the ICE contract, then they (the manipulators) could be held criminally liable

Sad that IB could be fugged over so easily by this. High profile contracts and all

But didn't you know, trading is dangerous. For everyone.

I did