I was with the neocons– (Then I went to the Middle East)

[Tresor]

Quote from Mom0/pH0x:

despite being under 1% of world population...maybe jews just have an overwhelming tendency to be heavily involved with influential things?

This makes sens. But why Jews are happy to receive merits for their involvement in POSITIVE influential things, but refuse (some members of this forum, especially a_person) to talk sensibly about NEGATIVE influential things they were involved in?

Austrians are ashamed of Hitler, Germans are ashamed of SS, Georgians are ashamed of Stalin, Russians are ashamed of NKVD, some of Americans are ashmed for Bush, some are ashamed for what US military does in some parts of the world at present.

Shoudn't Jews get a bit ashamed for the bad things that they were involved in the past / are involved at present?

 

[a_person]

Quote from Tresor:

This makes sens. But why Jews are happy to receive merits for their involvement in POSITIVE influential things, but refuse (some members of this forum, especially a_person) to talk sensibly about NEGATIVE influential things they were involved in?

Austrians are ashamed of Hitler, Germans are ashamed of SS, Georgians are ashamed of Stalin, Russians are ashamed of NKVD, some of Americans are ashmed for Bush, some are ashamed for what US military does in some parts of the world at present.

Shoudn't Jews get a bit ashamed for the bad things that they were involved in the past / are involved at present?

Nonsense, jews certainly are ashamed of Jewish communists, criminals, scumbags, traitors etc. And your nation whatever it is should be ashamed of anti-semitic scumbags like you who are obsessed with jews, who waste their empty lives looking for jewish names in movements and organizations in order to accuse THE JOOZ (yes, all jews) of all the things those movements and organizations do.

You nation should be ashamed of idiots like you who try to pin communism (and capitalism and neo-conservativism and liberalism..), Holodomor and slavery and everything else on the jews, just like your medieval ancestors tried to pin the Black Death on the jews centuries ago. In all fairness I do think your nation (assuming you're not an arab) is ashamed of human waste like you.

Your parents supported Stalin and communism, your parents are [partially] responsible for the victims of Stalin and Communism. Go spit in their faces or on their graves, you brain-dead islamo-nazi loving child of brain-dead Stalin loving parents. Jews as a people are not responsible for communism, your parents as individuals are.

 

[Tresor]

Quote from a_person:

Nonsense, jews certainly are ashamed of Jewish communists, criminals, scumbags, traitors etc.

Are they also ashamed for ghettoing 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza?

Quote from a_person:

And your nation whatever it is should be ashamed of anti-semitic scumbags like you who are obsessed with jews, who waste their empty lives looking for jewish names in movements and organizations in order to accuse THE JOOZ (yes, all jews) of all the things those movements and organizations do.

I am not anti-semitic, I am anti-zionist, just like I am anti-communist, anti-nazi, etc. I am not obsessed with jews, YOU are obsessed with Arabs.

Quote from a_person:

Your parents supported Stalin and communism, your parents are [partially] responsible for the victims of Stalin and Communism.

My parents neither supported Stalin (he died when my parents were kids) neither they supported communism (they were anti-communist, just like I am).

Quote from a_person:
Go spit in their faces or on their graves, you brain-dead islamo-nazi loving child of brain-dead Stalin loving parents. Jews as a people are not responsible for communism, your parents as individuals are.

And you go and fuck your father or your mother, depending on your sex preference

 

[Martinghoul]

Quote from Tresor:

Thanks Martinghoul,

I made a little research. I knew the Jews were over-represented in communist terror organisations, but it is better to back this knowledge by facts.

The Jews constituted around 2% of the Soviet population. Their representation in Cheka (secret police - real red terror assholes) management was 50% at certain point in time. When you divide 50% by 2% you arrive at an over-representation of 25 times.

The problem I had was with NKVD (all other data are from wikipedia). The statistics I found was from year 1934 (no earlier data): http://www.vho.org/tr/2004/3/Rudolf325-327.html The over-representation was 19 times.

Please have a look at the attached screenshot from my Excel.

Assuming I did not make an algebra mistake, it would be natural to admit that the Jews were over-represented in the red terror regime.

Regards

Yes, but, if you care to recall, I never argued about the point you're making above (I also know what Cheka and NKVD are, so you don't need to explain).

What I was refuting was your claim that Jewish population was the most disproportionately attracted to the Bolshevik movement. That's patently untrue. The Bolsheviks, unsurprisingly, drew most of their members from the oppressed and disenfranchised minorities, such as Poles, Lithuanians and Finns (and the Jews, of course). If you want to condemn entire ethnicities, clearly, there are better targets.

As to your point about the Jews at the top of the Bolshevik regime, I have three things to say (and this may echo what the others have posted):
1) Jews, for a variety of reasons, are/were often found at the top of the hierarchy in many human endeavors, good and bad alike. What exactly is the conclusion you're going to draw then? That Jewish scientists are god's gift to mankind or Jewish "chekists" are mankind's biggest curse?

2) If you look at the history of the early Soviet regime, you'll discover that Stalin really decided who stays and who disappears in the night, in a "black voronok" (name of a car used to pick people up in the 30s). Jewish members of the 'Old Guard' were in his good books initially, but fell out of favor rather quickly in the mid- and late 30s. So if you're looking to place blame, look no further than the Master.

3) This is the most important point. Whatever certain Jews did or did not do during and in the aftermath of the October revolution DOES NOT condemn the entire Jewish people. Generalizing this way is illogical, prejudiced and plain evil. Should I hate all Germans just because Hitler happened to be German?

So pls stop talking about Jews collectively... They are, on balance, exactly as good or as bad as any other ethnic group.

 

[Tresor]

Quote from Martinghoul:

Yes, but, if you care to recall, I never argued about the point you're making above (I also know what Cheka and NKVD are, so you don't need to explain).

What I was refuting was your claim that Jewish population was the most disproportionately attracted to the Bolshevik movement. That's patently untrue. The Bolsheviks, unsurprisingly, drew most of their members from the oppressed and disenfranchised minorities, such as Poles, Lithuanians and Finns (and the Jews, of course). If you want to condemn entire ethnicities, clearly, there are better targets.

As to your point about the Jews at the top of the Bolshevik regime, I have three things to say (and this may echo what the others have posted):
1) Jews, for a variety of reasons, are/were often found at the top of the hierarchy in many human endeavors, good and bad alike. What exactly is the conclusion you're going to draw then? That Jewish scientists are god's gift to mankind or Jewish "chekists" are mankind's biggest curse?

2) If you look at the history of the early Soviet regime, you'll discover that Stalin really decided who stays and who disappears in the night, in a "black voronok" (name of a car used to pick people up in the 30s). Jewish members of the 'Old Guard' were in his good books initially, but fell out of favor rather quickly in the mid- and late 30s. So if you're looking to place blame, look no further than the Master.

3) This is the most important point. Whatever certain Jews did or did not do during and in the aftermath of the October revolution DOES NOT condemn the entire Jewish people. Generalizing this way is illogical, prejudiced and plain evil. Should I hate all Germans just because Hitler happened to be German?

So pls stop talking about Jews collectively... They are, on balance, exactly as good or as bad as any other ethnic group.

Hello Martinghoul,

You made very crucial points that make sense to me. In no way did I want to condemn the Jews as a nation for communism. The conclusions one may draw from my previous posts is that Jews were at the top of decision making bodies that were responsible for many attrocities, Holomodor inclusive.

At the same time Jews were and are at the top of human evolution in art, business, education, etc.

These are facts. The issue raised in this thread was Ukrainian potential anti-Jewish sentiment as far as Holomodor is concerned. Some people here questioned the legacy of Ukrainians to blame Jews for the famine. Although we did not discuss Jewish real / made-up involvement in this tragedy, we established some facts / background about Bolshevism that may be helpfull to explore the subject of Holomodor, should anyone wish to proceed.

BTW, Hitler was Austrian.

Regards

 

[a_person]

The following list ...is an answer to all the neo-Nazis
who try to convince us that the major
Communist figures were "mainly" or "mostly" or "almost
exclusively" Jewish. What follows
contains no polemic, but only facts

The List

According to Benjamin Pinkus (The Jews of the Soviet Union,
Cambridge University Press, 1988, p. 83.):

"If we take all three sectors of the administration,
it emerges that of the 417 people who constituted the
ruling elite of the Soviet Union in the mid 1920s (the
members of the Central Executive Committee, the Party
Central Committee, the Presidium of the Executive of the
Soviets of the USSR and the Russian Republic, the Ministers,
and the Chairman of the Executive Committee),
twenty-seven (that is 6%) were Jews."

Oh, and btw the first person Stalin ousted was a jew - Leon Trotsky.

 

[Martinghoul]

Quote from Tresor:

Hello Martinghoul,

You made very crucial points that make sense to me. In no way did I want to condemn the Jews as a nation for communism. The conclusions one may draw from my previous posts is that Jews were at the top of decision making bodies that were responsible for many attrocities, Holomodor inclusive.

At the same time Jews were and are at the top of human evolution in art, business, education, etc.

These are facts. The issue raised in this thread was Ukrainian potential anti-Jewish sentiment as far as Holomodor is concerned. Some people here questioned the legacy of Ukrainians to blame Jews for the famine. Although we did not discuss Jewish real / made-up involvement in this tragedy, we established some facts / background about Bolshevism that may be helpfull to explore the subject of Holomodor, should anyone wish to proceed.

BTW, Hitler was Austrian.

Regards

Good point about Hitler, I keep forgetting he wasn't German.

So yes, ethnic Jews were initially prominent in the Bolshevik apparatus, just like members of other ethnicities, oppressed by the Tzarist regime. I completely disagree with the conclusion you draw from that. The only decision-making body was Stalin. The NKVD, Cheka etc were NOT decision-making bodies. They carried out the will of the Leader. Moreover, I would question whether by the time of Holodomor, ethnic Jews were as prominent as they were initially. Stalin made sure of that (culminating with the Doctors' Plot and the end of Zinoviev and Kamenev). Claiming that high-ranking Jewish members of the Party were involved in any sort of government is absurd, given that they couldn't even ensure their own survival.

As to Ukrainian sentiment, I hope you're aware that Ukrainian anti-semitism goes back centuries. Moreover, I am of the opinion that it's largely a product of the current political climate where all sorts of populist points can be earned by blaming the Russians and the Jews. So you'll have to forgive me for not accepting the current Ukrainian ire over Holodomor as genuine. Jews have always been and will probably always be a convenient target for cheap rabble-rousing politicians. If you're an intelligent person, you should be able to see through the propaganda.

 

[Tresor]

Quote from a_person:

The following list ...is an answer to all the neo-Nazis
who try to convince us that the major
Communist figures were "mainly" or "mostly" or "almost
exclusively" Jewish.

So far the only neo-Nazis I found here are: a_person and BernardRichards who both advocate ghettoing Palestinians in Gaza. They are zionist-nazis which is a form of neo-nazism.

Noone said that major Communist figures were "mainly" or "mostly" or "almost exclusively" Jewish. I used the term ''over-representation'' Yes, in some cases Jews were over-represented in red terror bodies by us much as 25 / 16 / ... times.

If based on the simple math you claim that ''over-representation'' is equivalent to ''mainly, mostly,...'', then it is your problem.

 

[omegapoint]

Quote from a_person:

The following list ...is an answer to all the neo-Nazis
who try to convince us that the major
Communist figures were "mainly" or "mostly" or "almost
exclusively" Jewish. What follows
contains no polemic, but only facts

The List

According to Benjamin Pinkus (The Jews of the Soviet Union,
Cambridge University Press, 1988, p. 83.):

"If we take all three sectors of the administration,
it emerges that of the 417 people who constituted the
ruling elite of the Soviet Union in the mid 1920s (the
members of the Central Executive Committee, the Party
Central Committee, the Presidium of the Executive of the
Soviets of the USSR and the Russian Republic, the Ministers,
and the Chairman of the Executive Committee),
twenty-seven (that is 6%) were Jews."

Oh, and btw the first person Stalin ousted was a jew - Leon Trotsky.

Don't forget Hirshal. He's in the second last row in the group picture (...that's him waving). He's the one with the forestares in the offstudy.

 

[Tresor]

Quote from Martinghoul:

The only decision-making body was Stalin. The NKVD, Cheka etc were NOT decision-making bodies.

Stalin for obvious reasons could not be the only decision-making body on everything in a country populated by 140 million people. Even managing a company with 1,000 employees requires delegating powers.

Stalin managed the country strategically to some extend and in some rare cases operationally (whom of his opponents to kill). Cheka was right after Stalin. They e.g. could decide whom to kill wthout trial. NKVD were responsible for thousands of innocent deaths in Warsaw Pact countries. NKVD was a crime organisation.

Quote from Martinghoul:

They carried out the will of the Leader. Moreover, I would question whether by the time of Holodomor, ethnic Jews were as prominent as they were initially.

Holodomor happened in 1932 - 1933. At that time (statistics for 1934 are available) the Jews represented 38.5% of the NKVD leaders (Jews were only 2% of the population), which consitutes an over-representation of 19 times. NKVD was implementing operationally the ideas from Moscow.

Quote from Martinghoul:

Stalin made sure of that (culminating with the Doctors' Plot and the end of Zinoviev and Kamenev). Claiming that high-ranking Jewish members of the Party were involved in any sort of government is absurd, given that they couldn't even ensure their own survival.

The importance of the Party was insignificant. The role of the Party was just to give the people the illusion that they have a representation in Moscow. In fact people did not matter in Communism. Secret police and secret agents rulled the country (Cheka and NKVD) and to some extend military.

Quote from Martinghoul:

As to Ukrainian sentiment, I hope you're aware that Ukrainian anti-semitism goes back centuries. Moreover, I am of the opinion that it's largely a product of the current political climate where all sorts of populist points can be earned by blaming the Russians and the Jews. So you'll have to forgive me for not accepting the current Ukrainian ire over Holodomor as genuine. Jews have always been and will probably always be a convenient target for cheap rabble-rousing politicians. If you're an intelligent person, you should be able to see through the propaganda.

I never was in Ukraine. Since you are half Russian/half Ukrainian for sure you know a lot more about Jewish-Ukrainians relations and the background. And of course you know something about ''current political climate where all sorts of populist points can be earned by blaming the Russians and the Jews'' - just curious: if not the Russians and the Jews are to blame, then who is? Do you think it is a propaganda? Did Ukrainians cause the famine for themselves and try to blame others?