I think I'm gonna go to Gambler's Anonymous

I went to dinner tonite with a female friend who was bulimic and went to, and still is (infrequently now) attending OA. I wrote my message just before heading out for dinner and I'm happy to read all the replies now that I got home.

I do have a winning system and I am trading against it trying to anticipate a move before the actual signal is given. It's a pretty simple, mechanical system. I think I'm being greedy and that is why I'm getting into trouble. But as most of you guys pointed out, the bottom line is discipline...or lack thereof. I get into a trade before a signal, lose money, and I keep thinking to myself, "of course you lost money, it's against the system!" But because the system is such a simple, sloppy system, I try to "optimize" it by getting in early. I sometimes feel really stupid that I still press the button even knowing full well I shouldn't. I feel like the smoker who lights up even though he wants to quit!

I'm encouraged to hear that some of you found a way to lick the problem and never looked back. I'm also encouraged to hear that it took years to do so and I feel like I'm on the right path. As a trader, I feel like I've come so far. I recognize and acknowledge my problem (discipline). Earlier in my trading career, I also lacked some of the other important elements to successful trading such as confidence, courage, commitment, patience, and emotionality. But since then, and about $25,000 paid to trader's university, I feel like I got a passing grade in all of them except discipline.

Lack of discipline stems from something else inside me as one ETer pointed out. I have absolutely no clue what it is. I need to seek that out and figure out why I'm sabotaging myself. I'm open to the help of GA if that will be the instrument to identifying my problem. My friend was very supportive of me and even offered to go with me for my first meeting. OA has helped her a lot and she thinks it can't hurt if I went to attend some meetings. Even though trading doesn't really fall precisely into the typical GA theme, I think it's still worthwhile.

DNAJ65000
 
Quote from hypostomus:

...trading IS gambling. The only issue is whether you have a system and are a winner or trade "discretionarily" and are a loser. You don't need to change your personality at all. All you need is a winning system. I am a maniac, a drunk, and an overall addictive personality, but I could trade profitably while dead drunk and totally maniacal as long as I was conscious enough to follow my systems. Don't beat yourself up. DEVELOP A WINNING SYSTEM, and save yourself the pain of personal change. It's so much easier.
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This is a very interesting and insightful post. However, it assumes that you favor the "American" approach to trading (How can I make the most money by putting forth the least effort?)

What if my reason for trading is that I WANT to work on improving myself, and the P/L is just an objective way to measure my success? Or what if my reason for trading is that I want to understand the markets?

Most people can probably make more money being the greatest a**hole "running a business" or working their way up in a large company. This takes way less effort than the development of a profitable trading system, and it will generally make you richer. All you have to do is ignore your conscience if you have one.
 
Quote from Lobster:



What if my reason for trading is that I WANT to work on improving myself, and the P/L is just an objective way to measure my success? Or what if my reason for trading is that I want to understand the markets?
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This is IMO the right kind of attitude that will provide a rising equity curve.

As for the gambling mentality, I think everyone has it. I believe the root of this problem is the human shortsightedness. Most people will prefer $1000 now, than $1050 tomorrow. And why not?... Think about it! Tomorrow is uncertain. You will take some risk if you choose tomorrow. Are you willing to take it? How much information and confidence do you have to bet what is going to happen tomorrow? All this is subjective and you have to make a choice! The gambler bets on his luck today but suffers the consequences of all his decisions in the past...
 
...the "American" method! How droll! You must remember that most of us are descended from sturdy English criminal stock. All I can say is to quote you what my daily setup instructions sheet reminds me to remember every morning while I'm trading: "Trading is not about learning, being smart, psychotherapy, entertainment, ego satisfaction, pleasure, or bragging. This is WORK. It's how you pay your bills, schmuck!"

When the trading is over, all those side benefits are there. I just put them aside while trading. Like most neurotics, I don't WANT to get better, but IMO it IS an inevitable side effect. As I said elsewhere, it's the only form of therapy where the Doctor pays YOU.

And I have no conscience when I am trading. It is sheer sadistic pleasure to take other people's money and to realize that, unless they're scaling in to longer time frame trades, they know that they screwed up. It's payback for all the years I screwed up. Also, I take pleasure in thinking that I am opening the wallets of brilliant discretionary traders, outfoxed by my "dumb" systems.
 
Quote from Lobster:



This is a very interesting and insightful post. However, it assumes that you favor the "American" approach to trading (How can I make the most money by putting forth the least effort?)

What if my reason for trading is that I WANT to work on improving myself, and the P/L is just an objective way to measure my success? Or what if my reason for trading is that I want to understand the markets?

Most people can probably make more money being the greatest a**hole "running a business" or working their way up in a large company. This takes way less effort than the development of a profitable trading system, and it will generally make you richer. All you have to do is ignore your conscience if you have one.
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Wow, for somebody who trades you sure are anticapitalism. Furthermore anybody who thinks that trading to better ones self is the correct reason for doing so has a hidden psychological agenda that needs to be attended to. The one and ONLY reason to trade is to make an obnoxious amount of money. Why put yourself through the pain and misery of learning the craft when all you want to do is peer into yourself...you can do that a myriad of ways that are much cheaper.
 
Quote from indahook:



The one and ONLY reason to trade is to make an obnoxious amount of money. Why put yourself through the pain and misery of learning the craft when all you want to do is peer into yourself...you can do that a myriad of ways that are much cheaper.
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If making an obnoxious amount of money is YOUR only reason to trade, that is fair because that is what you want. However, in my readings (ex. New Market Wizards), there are super traders (Richard Dreihaus) who do make a lot of money and then turn to philanthropy and bettering themselves and society. Don't you feel that it is short changing the art of trading to say it is a black and white issue? You are esentially saying that making money is the only goal and nothing else matters. I have not read any super rich trader that shares your view of the markets. Many share an intellectual curiosity towards the market and human behaviour.

DNAJ65000
 
Quote from dnaj65000:



If making an obnoxious amount of money is YOUR only reason to trade, that is fair because that is what you want. However, in my readings (ex. New Market Wizards), there are super traders (Richard Dreihaus) who do make a lot of money and then turn to philanthropy and bettering themselves and society. Don't you feel that it is short changing the art of trading to say it is a black and white issue? You are essentially saying that making money is the only goal and nothing else matters. I have not read any super rich trader that shares your view of the markets. Many share an intellectual curiosity towards the market and human behavior.

DNAJ65000
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Black = winning = unlimited income and freedom
White = losing = losing your grubstake, forced to leave the game

Could any mkt wizard afford to be philanthropic without winning?

It is easy to sit back after you become successful and claim that you did it all for the sake of intellectual curiosity. But what kept them going through thick and thin (sometimes a few life savings) was the desire to win...thats the bottom line.
I agree that curiosity brings alot of people into the mkts...but the desire to win keeps them here.
 
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