test:
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thanks, nkhoi (if it works
)
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thanks, nkhoi (if it works
)
I Need More Accountability - Sim P/L
- Thread starter mephistoII
- Start date
Ezzy and Meph....
Please forgive me if this is too far off in the weeds, but I've given a lot of thought to the pm's Ezzy and I had and this post contains to foundational EQ (emotional quotient) stuff that seems to have gotten me over the hump. I request that before you ask any questions about this (even if you don't have a clue what the hell I'm talking about) just try it.
OK, you know how you hear that trading is the easient thing in the world? You hear that from the most succesful folks. And every time I heard it I wanted to kill somebody. Well I found a way to make it easy, if you are truly willing. The fact is, most people aren't (or their personal patterns won't let them and they're unwilling to work on those patterns).
Trading is no different than anything else you want. A great marriage (or a full harem), a Ferrari, to be a genius, become president, whatever. And most people focus, focus, focus, on what they don't have, THINKING THEY ARE FOCUSED ON WHAT THEY WANT. Two very different things indeed. Inevitably, you will get what you focus on. The losers claim this isn't so, because they don't realize they spend all their time focusing on what they don't have and end up getting exactly that. This is huge, when you get it you'll feel ill, literally.
Now, I submit you can't (or at least it's VERY difficult) control your mind and dictate what it does and does not think about. So, here's a short cut. I take no credit for this. I'd rather not say where it comes from, at least not now. Just try it for a while and see what happens.
There is up stream, and there is down stream. Most humans (particularly in western cultures) are taught and trained that hard work gets you to success. Bang hard enough and you'll arrive. This, my friends, is upstream thinking. It's painful and you have LOTS of company, practically the whole world. Upstream thinking includes any thoughts like, "I'm too tired to trade, I'm not sure I understood Spyder, I wonder if anyone really can do this, dammit my computer hiccupped again, I hope my broker doesn't screw me, man I just can't tell if this is inc blk or dec red, I keep missing pt 3's".
If you get the idea that almost every thought you currently have is upstream, then you'd be right.
Please forgive me if this is too far off in the weeds, but I've given a lot of thought to the pm's Ezzy and I had and this post contains to foundational EQ (emotional quotient) stuff that seems to have gotten me over the hump. I request that before you ask any questions about this (even if you don't have a clue what the hell I'm talking about) just try it.
OK, you know how you hear that trading is the easient thing in the world? You hear that from the most succesful folks. And every time I heard it I wanted to kill somebody. Well I found a way to make it easy, if you are truly willing. The fact is, most people aren't (or their personal patterns won't let them and they're unwilling to work on those patterns).
Trading is no different than anything else you want. A great marriage (or a full harem), a Ferrari, to be a genius, become president, whatever. And most people focus, focus, focus, on what they don't have, THINKING THEY ARE FOCUSED ON WHAT THEY WANT. Two very different things indeed. Inevitably, you will get what you focus on. The losers claim this isn't so, because they don't realize they spend all their time focusing on what they don't have and end up getting exactly that. This is huge, when you get it you'll feel ill, literally.
Now, I submit you can't (or at least it's VERY difficult) control your mind and dictate what it does and does not think about. So, here's a short cut. I take no credit for this. I'd rather not say where it comes from, at least not now. Just try it for a while and see what happens.
There is up stream, and there is down stream. Most humans (particularly in western cultures) are taught and trained that hard work gets you to success. Bang hard enough and you'll arrive. This, my friends, is upstream thinking. It's painful and you have LOTS of company, practically the whole world. Upstream thinking includes any thoughts like, "I'm too tired to trade, I'm not sure I understood Spyder, I wonder if anyone really can do this, dammit my computer hiccupped again, I hope my broker doesn't screw me, man I just can't tell if this is inc blk or dec red, I keep missing pt 3's".
If you get the idea that almost every thought you currently have is upstream, then you'd be right.
Just start noticing how upstream you are. On my cheat sheet, at the very top, is my first analysis question. It's self analysis. I ask myself, "is this an upstream thougth or a down stream thought.
Just start doing this. Many will accuse me that this is nothing more than pie in the sky, feel good and all will be ok sort of thinking. I thought so too, for many many years. Actually, it is, until the reality of the upstream/downstream thing really hits home.
Everything you want is downstream yet you keep rowing like a son of a gun upstream. Shifting to being more downstream is what opened my mind to hearing what Spyder was really saying. Keep in mind, you have a lot of upstream momentum. It'll take a bit of time for this to catch on with you. I am happy to continue conversing about this if you want or find value in it. This concept shifted everything for me.
Just start doing this. Many will accuse me that this is nothing more than pie in the sky, feel good and all will be ok sort of thinking. I thought so too, for many many years. Actually, it is, until the reality of the upstream/downstream thing really hits home.
Everything you want is downstream yet you keep rowing like a son of a gun upstream. Shifting to being more downstream is what opened my mind to hearing what Spyder was really saying. Keep in mind, you have a lot of upstream momentum. It'll take a bit of time for this to catch on with you. I am happy to continue conversing about this if you want or find value in it. This concept shifted everything for me.
I enjoyed this post.
Flow - go with the flow - fluency
The part about looking for all the superfluous negatives resonates - instead of focusing on the sufficient data you need Now to make a decision.
Do you want to go to A or B? The river is flowing towards B. Tough choice. Choose B then (and wave at the suckers struggling towards A).
Bundlemaker,
This prompted a bunch of thoughts, some probably unrelated to what you were going for. Would like to hear more about the downstream thoughts.
Ezzy and Meph....
OK, you know how you hear that trading is the easient thing in the world? You hear that from the most succesful folks. And every time I heard it I wanted to kill somebody. Well I found a way to make it easy, if you are truly willing. The fact is, most people aren't (or their personal patterns won't let them and they're unwilling to work on those patterns).
---------------------------------------
I believe to get to this (being easy) stems from two things. One is having an answer (action) for everything that happens. You have your sequences, and an answer for each one. If you have inflamed/unbalanced emotions it's because you don't have a definitive answer and can't can't handle what's happening right now.
The other is the sports memory Jack mentions. You've done something so many times, you know what's happening and how to handle anything that comes up, and it's automatic. You don't have to think about it.
Anyone who has reached a high level of performance in a sport or activity would be able to relate. (I'll avoid going off on a tangent here
)
snip. . . Inevitably, you will get what you focus on. The losers claim this isn't so, because they don't realize they spend all their time focusing on what they don't have and end up getting exactly that. This is huge, when you get it you'll feel ill, literally.
---------------------------------------
Absolutely. Or focusing on what isn't happening instead of what is; or how can this be, instead of how it can be.
Now, I submit you can't (or at least it's VERY difficult) control your mind and dictate what it does and does not think about.
snip . . .
There is up stream, and there is down stream. Most humans (particularly in western cultures) are taught and trained that hard work gets you to success. Bang hard enough and you'll arrive. This, my friends, is upstream thinking. It's painful and you have LOTS of company, practically the whole world. Upstream thinking includes any thoughts like, "I'm too tired to trade, I'm not sure I understood Spyder, I wonder if anyone really can do this, dammit my computer hiccupped again, I hope my broker doesn't screw me, man I just can't tell if this is inc blk or dec red, I keep missing pt 3's".
If you get the idea that almost every thought you currently have is upstream, then you'd be right.
--------------------------------------
What would be an example of downstream thinking? We're getting to going with the flow here. But how do we allow that to happen? Prodding you here for a bit more because it's it's easy to think "let go, go with it." To put that into practice in the market, what would those thoughts be?
There is a difference in resistance to new ideas vs. gaining an understanding of them.
I can think of a vivid example, though not sure if I can articulate it properly. When you have done something many, many times it becomes sports memory. When you try to explain it you miss describing the nuances that may be important or even essential, because they are ingrained or self evident to you, so the thought never occurs that this or that needs explaining.
For example:
"We reverse on the end of this bar."
Well, why this bar?
"You just have to reverse there"
Why there?
"Because it changes there"
How do you know?
"You just have to reverse there"
But what about . . .
"You just have to reverse there"
Now that was done in fun (think Carpman from South Park "You just have to save me"), not to be critical of anyones teaching style. But sometimes that's what it feels like trying to understand something new. When you read posts, and go back months later you pick up more things, nuances you didn't notice before. But some of those nuances are a big part of the puzzle, or a sequence.
Why do we reverse on the end of this bar? A number of sequences started happening such as: 1,2,3,4,5, etc. At first you are unaware of most of them. As you learn about them, or are open to seeing them, things start to click.
Most of our prior learning (schooling) has been us taken by the hand and shown all the answers to the question. Or "here is the formula" to work it out. That isn't what's happening here so it's a new experience altogether. Some of it has to be learned by experience.
-------------------------------------
From PointOne: The part about looking for all the superfluous negatives resonates - instead of focusing on the sufficient data you need Now to make a decision.
Do you want to go to A or B? The river is flowing towards B. Tough choice.
----------------------------------------
Good analogy. Going with the flow of sequences needed for continuation or change. As certain things start happening the current starts to change and you ride along with it.
Regards - EZ
This prompted a bunch of thoughts, some probably unrelated to what you were going for. Would like to hear more about the downstream thoughts.
Ezzy and Meph....
OK, you know how you hear that trading is the easient thing in the world? You hear that from the most succesful folks. And every time I heard it I wanted to kill somebody. Well I found a way to make it easy, if you are truly willing. The fact is, most people aren't (or their personal patterns won't let them and they're unwilling to work on those patterns).
---------------------------------------
I believe to get to this (being easy) stems from two things. One is having an answer (action) for everything that happens. You have your sequences, and an answer for each one. If you have inflamed/unbalanced emotions it's because you don't have a definitive answer and can't can't handle what's happening right now.
The other is the sports memory Jack mentions. You've done something so many times, you know what's happening and how to handle anything that comes up, and it's automatic. You don't have to think about it.
Anyone who has reached a high level of performance in a sport or activity would be able to relate. (I'll avoid going off on a tangent here
)snip. . . Inevitably, you will get what you focus on. The losers claim this isn't so, because they don't realize they spend all their time focusing on what they don't have and end up getting exactly that. This is huge, when you get it you'll feel ill, literally.
---------------------------------------
Absolutely. Or focusing on what isn't happening instead of what is; or how can this be, instead of how it can be.
Now, I submit you can't (or at least it's VERY difficult) control your mind and dictate what it does and does not think about.
snip . . .
There is up stream, and there is down stream. Most humans (particularly in western cultures) are taught and trained that hard work gets you to success. Bang hard enough and you'll arrive. This, my friends, is upstream thinking. It's painful and you have LOTS of company, practically the whole world. Upstream thinking includes any thoughts like, "I'm too tired to trade, I'm not sure I understood Spyder, I wonder if anyone really can do this, dammit my computer hiccupped again, I hope my broker doesn't screw me, man I just can't tell if this is inc blk or dec red, I keep missing pt 3's".
If you get the idea that almost every thought you currently have is upstream, then you'd be right.
--------------------------------------
What would be an example of downstream thinking? We're getting to going with the flow here. But how do we allow that to happen? Prodding you here for a bit more because it's it's easy to think "let go, go with it." To put that into practice in the market, what would those thoughts be?
There is a difference in resistance to new ideas vs. gaining an understanding of them.
I can think of a vivid example, though not sure if I can articulate it properly. When you have done something many, many times it becomes sports memory. When you try to explain it you miss describing the nuances that may be important or even essential, because they are ingrained or self evident to you, so the thought never occurs that this or that needs explaining.
For example:
"We reverse on the end of this bar."
Well, why this bar?
"You just have to reverse there"
Why there?
"Because it changes there"
How do you know?
"You just have to reverse there"
But what about . . .
"You just have to reverse there"
Now that was done in fun (think Carpman from South Park "You just have to save me"), not to be critical of anyones teaching style. But sometimes that's what it feels like trying to understand something new. When you read posts, and go back months later you pick up more things, nuances you didn't notice before. But some of those nuances are a big part of the puzzle, or a sequence.
Why do we reverse on the end of this bar? A number of sequences started happening such as: 1,2,3,4,5, etc. At first you are unaware of most of them. As you learn about them, or are open to seeing them, things start to click.
Most of our prior learning (schooling) has been us taken by the hand and shown all the answers to the question. Or "here is the formula" to work it out. That isn't what's happening here so it's a new experience altogether. Some of it has to be learned by experience.
-------------------------------------
From PointOne: The part about looking for all the superfluous negatives resonates - instead of focusing on the sufficient data you need Now to make a decision.
Do you want to go to A or B? The river is flowing towards B. Tough choice.
----------------------------------------
Good analogy. Going with the flow of sequences needed for continuation or change. As certain things start happening the current starts to change and you ride along with it.
Regards - EZ
An excellent string of posts, fellas - thank you! It's like a breath of fresh air, after my typical hodgepodge of pedantic ramblings
Anyone who has been around this business for any amount of time can appreciate the fact that trading success is surely 90% mental. Price can only go two ways (three, if you want to include sideways, but laterals are still comprised of up and down movements, albeit of smaller durations). Regardless of the method(s) employed, most traders shouldn't have too much of a problem discerning price direction, in so far as at least bettering the odds of a simple coin toss. The troubles start once the position is taken, and bundlemaker's aforementioned EQ kicks in. I can surely relate to the upstream mode, as I am one of the world's worst in regards to finding every reason under the sun why 'this particular trade' is not going to pan out - heheh.
EZ beat me to the punch when bringing up the request for 'downstream thoughts' examples - that was the first question that came to my mind after reading bundlemaker's thought-provoking post. But to take a neophyte's stab at it, I assume it's basically doing the opposite of what I stated above; i.e., embracing the reasons why the trade is going to be successful, based on having confidence in the entry setup, and knowing full well what the next action step will be.
I firmly believe that experience (and its close sibling, sports memory) will become the canvas upon which we all create our SCT 'masterpiece'. Each day brings the same basic sequences, but yet they each have their variant subtleties which must first be viewed, and then processed in our minds to solidify the proper associations.
snip (bundlemaker): < OK, you know how you hear that trading is the easient thing in the world? You hear that from the most succesful folks. And every time I heard it I wanted to kill somebody > ... it's great to learn that perhaps my thoughts are not quite as wacky as I once assumed
Really good stuff - hope you guys will continue this discussion. Have a great week! Regards ... meph
Anyone who has been around this business for any amount of time can appreciate the fact that trading success is surely 90% mental. Price can only go two ways (three, if you want to include sideways, but laterals are still comprised of up and down movements, albeit of smaller durations). Regardless of the method(s) employed, most traders shouldn't have too much of a problem discerning price direction, in so far as at least bettering the odds of a simple coin toss. The troubles start once the position is taken, and bundlemaker's aforementioned EQ kicks in. I can surely relate to the upstream mode, as I am one of the world's worst in regards to finding every reason under the sun why 'this particular trade' is not going to pan out - heheh.
EZ beat me to the punch when bringing up the request for 'downstream thoughts' examples - that was the first question that came to my mind after reading bundlemaker's thought-provoking post. But to take a neophyte's stab at it, I assume it's basically doing the opposite of what I stated above; i.e., embracing the reasons why the trade is going to be successful, based on having confidence in the entry setup, and knowing full well what the next action step will be.
I firmly believe that experience (and its close sibling, sports memory) will become the canvas upon which we all create our SCT 'masterpiece'. Each day brings the same basic sequences, but yet they each have their variant subtleties which must first be viewed, and then processed in our minds to solidify the proper associations.
snip (bundlemaker): < OK, you know how you hear that trading is the easient thing in the world? You hear that from the most succesful folks. And every time I heard it I wanted to kill somebody > ... it's great to learn that perhaps my thoughts are not quite as wacky as I once assumed
Really good stuff - hope you guys will continue this discussion. Have a great week! Regards ... meph
Great morning to answer you guys. I was unable to trade last week, so I make sure I'm in front of the screens at 8:30 Chicago time. I'm raring to go. I decided that this is the week I'd really do sim trading as opposed to just annotating.
Then "IT" happens. I get sucked into punching the buy sell button too frequently. The day develops into a tough (for me at least) low volume, sideways mess.
Potential upstream thoughts (some of this did start to creep into my pee brain): I knew this couldn't work, I can't do this, well is this or is this not an FTT, r2r, b2b, fill in the blank,
Downstream thoughts which I had to CONSCIOUSLY place in my mind: wow I'm actually able to annotate YM and ES together in real time quite well, this is your first day back after a week off and you're not nearly the expert you wish you were yet so give yourself a break, others are doing this so just take it easy and stop the negative talk and relax and don't worry about your results today
Many downstream thoughts result from reframing an upstream thought. If you can possibly find a book entitled "Frogs Into Princes" I strongly reccomend reading it. Feel free to take this conversation as deep as you want, I believe this conversation IS what it's all about.
Then "IT" happens. I get sucked into punching the buy sell button too frequently. The day develops into a tough (for me at least) low volume, sideways mess.
Potential upstream thoughts (some of this did start to creep into my pee brain): I knew this couldn't work, I can't do this, well is this or is this not an FTT, r2r, b2b, fill in the blank,
Downstream thoughts which I had to CONSCIOUSLY place in my mind: wow I'm actually able to annotate YM and ES together in real time quite well, this is your first day back after a week off and you're not nearly the expert you wish you were yet so give yourself a break, others are doing this so just take it easy and stop the negative talk and relax and don't worry about your results today
Many downstream thoughts result from reframing an upstream thought. If you can possibly find a book entitled "Frogs Into Princes" I strongly reccomend reading it. Feel free to take this conversation as deep as you want, I believe this conversation IS what it's all about.
bundlemaker - sorry for this delayed response. With the advent of Spring now squarely upon us, the hours in the day are not sufficient to handle what seems like a hundred things needing attention all at once. I'm not willing to give up my daily screen time, so that leaves working well into our extended daylight hours and very little spare time in the evening. I can't imagine how Spyder is able to handle everything coming his way!
I was surprised to learn that you have just begun to sim trade - here I thought you were trading live for a good while already. Not that it matters in the slightest - just funny how one can make assumptions via this medium and end up with the wrong conclusions.
I'm slowly beginning to realize how actively aware a person needs to be to properly implement all that we are aspiring to learn. The simple act of bringing the front end into the mix does add another level of involvement - just the mechanics of proper order placement requires additional thought. I still occasionally make foolish errors, due to not yet having fully trained myself to maintain the necessary focus.
Sim trading also brings in more of the emotional aspects, regardless if it is only 'play' money. If one is not confident of his actions, then the ground becomes even more shaky as the red bars on the DOM begin to multiply, and second-guessing oneself needs to be confronted. We don't buy a new car without a test drive - why would we take a trading method live before testing.
This morning's elusive mkt action seemed to precipitate a discussion in the Paltalk room concerning people's thoughts about how much time is required before a person will become consistently profitable - the trouble with the question is that there is no definitive answer. We are all unique, and our paths to success do not necessarily run parallel. But it dawned on me how your ideas of upstream/downstream thoughts can play such a vital role in speeding along the process.
Over the past few months, I have noticed a marked change in my trading 'demeanor'. It used to be I would start the day wondering how I was going to control the losses - I now begin each day wondering how profitable the session will become. I started out today a couple points to the good, only to give it back and go negative. I distinctly remember my self-talk, to the effect - 'no big deal, there's plenty of time left to find the proper setup, and take some more profits'. I liken this to your thought of "give yourself a break". The profits ended up quite modest ( a computer crash and having to quit the session early didn't help) but I still felt a sense of accomplishment for the time spent. Previously, I would have probably brow-beat myself, and launched into revenge trading! We know how well that works
Hopefully I am conveying, however ineptly, that I feel such ideas and discussions of the mental aspects of trading are a key part of a trader's maturation. As if just learning these methods isn't already enough - heheh.
Best of luck with your continuing journey! Regards - meph ...
Earlier in this thread I made a comment about "trying anything different". I just posted a great example of "anything different" in the futures thread.