I have a system. I want to turn it into an algo (robot trading) system

2rosy · Jul 22, 2016

I will automate it for you for free. First you have to clearly define you strategy so it can be automated

. If it's profitable after 6 months I will pay you $x; if it's unprofitable you pay me $x

. Source code, escrow, ... can all be worked out later.

profitlocker · Jul 22, 2016

Any viable coded retail system will require inputs and catalysts. Your programmer can't steal the grey matter between your ears.

pstrusi · Jul 23, 2016

Neal said:
Hi,

I have developed a system that uses constant tick bars & traditional indicators & I have spent a great deal of time testing manually & seems to be working pretty good on most futures & Indices using a regular charting software. But that software is not sophisticated enough to make it completely mechanical so I can not test it with large amount of historical data.

I want to get it programmed so that it will be like an algo trading where the algo will do everything including finding the signals & execution of orders with entry, stops & exits.

Can you guys please suggest me which charting software will do this and find a programmer to do that ?

Also I am going to have to disclose the system to the programmer so how do I protect myself ?

Thank You
Neal

I'd suggest to try Ninjatrader, it's programmable in C#, and its version non-live trading is free, so you can contrast your Algo. If you have some basic programming experience it'll take no much time to learn it well. Besides it has a great assistance forum to ask doubts and solve problems.

I'm gonna suggest a few tips for your backtesting:

- Try to work with the same data of your actually broker, don't buy any other data, you may finish with unreliable results and nasty surprises in your real account
- Consider the slippage while you trade, depending on your trading frequency
- Don't use leverage for a good level of performance rate
- Once you've backtested, try first a live simulation and watch reality performance
- Watch for real technical errors while live trading, such as: disconnections, overfilled...etc

Regarding to protect yourself:
- Don't tell your idea to anyone
- Don't upload your algo in any free web sites that promises you a brilliant future
- Set a good firewall, close all non-used ports, close services as FTP...etc
- Don't open any link embedded into a mail
- Use a good antivirus, I'd suggest Avira free version

Good luck

jcl366 · Jul 23, 2016

I'm in the system development business (I'm not fishing for a job here though). I only must smile about that permanent fear by beginners that programmers or other people "steal their system".

Systems are a dime a dozen. I have my hard disk full of systems. If a programmer wanted to steal, he could of course, since no NDA or contract can 100% prevent this. But a professional programmer is coding for money and not for the hope to find a profitable system that he can trade himself. If he trades, he's using his own systems. Maybe some ideas from his past programming jobs go into them, but I have never heard of a case that a programmer has "stolen" a system from a client.

If your system is simple, learn programming and do it yourself. If it is complex, you really need a programmer, but if you did it manually so far it can hardly have been this complicated.

Cypherdude · Jul 23, 2016

Neal said:
I have developed a system that uses constant tick bars & traditional indicators ...

I want to get it programmed so that it will be like an algo trading where the algo will do everything including finding the signals & execution of orders with entry, stops & exits.

Can you guys please suggest me which charting software will do this and find a programmer to do that?
...

The following is my opinion and for educational purposes only:
TradeStation's EasyLanguage is pretty good. It also has objects which makes it more versatile. You may be able to program it yourself. There are plenty of people who know how to program EasyLanguage. If anyone is interested in looking at EasyLanguage, reply to this and I'll post all the help file links. There are about 9 different sections.

The only thing I don't like about TradeStation is they may force you to have different accounts for equities, futures, and FOREX. Best you call them for details.

Cypherdude · Jul 23, 2016

pstrusi said:
I'd suggest to try Ninjatrader, it's programmable in C#, and its version non-live trading is free, so you can contrast your Algo. If you have some basic programming experience it'll take no much time to learn it well. Besides it has a great assistance forum to ask doubts and solve problems.

I'm gonna suggest a few tips for your backtesting:

- Try to work with the same data of your actually broker, don't buy any other data, you may finish with unreliable results and nasty surprises in your real account
- Consider the slippage while you trade, depending on your trading frequency
- Don't use leverage for a good level of performance rate
- Once you've backtested, try first a live simulation and watch reality performance
- Watch for real technical errors while live trading, such as: disconnections, overfilled...etc

Regarding to protect yourself:
- Don't tell your idea to anyone
- Don't upload your algo in any free web sites that promises you a brilliant future
- Set a good firewall, close all non-used ports, close services as FTP...etc
- Don't open any link embedded into a mail
- Use a good antivirus, I'd suggest Avira free version

Good luck

The following is my opinion and for educational purposes only:
If a system is any good, and there are thousands of systems, I agree not to upload it. I also agree about not having FTP or Torrent programs open on a trading PC. However, I would not use a free antivirus. For a trading PC, get good antivirus/firewall software such as Norton Internet Security. I use Windows 7-64 so I don't have to use their latest edition. I prefer NIS v21.7. It has the black background. I don't like Symantec's newest simplified Norton Security software at all.

BTW, if you install v21.7 and want to keep it, you must shut off "Automatic Download of New Version" in Settings > Computer > Updates. Otherwise Symantec will update your software to their newest edition. If you have Windows 10, you will probably not be able to use v21.7. v21.7 is dated 2014.

fordewind · Jul 23, 2016

jcl366 said:
I'm in the system development business (I'm not fishing for a job here though). I only must smile about that permanent fear by beginners that programmers or other people "steal their system".

Systems are a dime a dozen. I have my hard disk full of systems. If a programmer wanted to steal, he could of course, since no NDA or contract can 100% prevent this. But a professional programmer is coding for money and not for the hope to find a profitable system that he can trade himself. If he trades, he's using his own systems. Maybe some ideas from his past programming jobs go into them, but I have never heard of a case that a programmer has "stolen" a system from a client.

If your system is simple, learn programming and do it yourself. If it is complex, you really need a programmer, but if you did it manually so far it can hardly have been this complicated.

Right.Many developers i worked with in the past have implemented many of my ideas in their products,partly.For the fun of it,i took all the trials of that products to only see it was a bunch of nonsense.

All in all,op doesn`t have to disclose all the parts of the system to a developer.Just ask a developer to code the framework for you,and then put all the parts necessary,one after another.

Neal · Jul 25, 2016

DionysusToast said:
If you get a programmer that knows one of the common automation platforms already - like NinjaTrader, then he will have an interest in trading.

As such, were your system to work, he'd most certainly at least keep it to trade himself and very likely sell it on to others.

I have seen this happen many times - people have ideas, find a developer on a trading forum and then 6 months later, they haven't heard from the developer for ages and they see he's got a website selling their ideas.

The best way to protect yourself is to find a developer with no interest in trading and to suck up the fact it'll take a little extra time to complete.

I'd also get him to just draw dot's on the screen, don't even tell him it'a an auto trader. You can convert the dot drawing to order commands yourself later.

Contracts are tough to enforce with this sort of thing because he can claim his idea is different from the one you presented and to prove otherwise would be costly and quite difficult.

You are so right & that is what I am afraid of.

With absolutely no knowledge of programming, I was thinking about getting it done on one of those platforms and that was also my question as to which platform would be best. I am using 12 monitors for one future like emini ES with different time frame on each monitor & that way I am able to find a trade on one or more monitors. I could use as many as 24 OR 48 monitors for just one instrument which would generate sometimes many trades at different entry points & exit points & I can choosy to find the best setups too.

Now I have tested this on many major futures in different sectors & also on options having a volume of 100K to 1 million contracts for just one strike price. So opportunities are endless. I tried it on ETFs & Stocks too but I could not find the reliable tick data for them & system doesn't work well with overnight gaps. 24 Hr markets are best.

So any idea as to which platform should be used OR another way of doing it ?

Thanks

Sig · Jul 25, 2016

Neal said:
You are so right & that is what I am afraid of.

With absolutely no knowledge of programming, I was thinking about getting it done on one of those platforms and that was also my question as to which platform would be best. I am using 12 monitors for one future like emini ES with different time frame on each monitor & that way I am able to find a trade on one or more monitors. I could use as many as 24 OR 48 monitors for just one instrument which would generate sometimes many trades at different entry points & exit points & I can choosy to find the best setups too.

Now I have tested this on many major futures in different sectors & also on options having a volume of 100K to 1 million contracts for just one strike price. So opportunities are endless. I tried it on ETFs & Stocks too but I could not find the reliable tick data for them & system doesn't work well with overnight gaps. 24 Hr markets are best.

So any idea as to which platform should be used OR another way of doing it ?

Thanks

You have to ask yourself if you're trading something as liquid as ES and it works on many different futures, what impact will it have on you if someone "steals" it? Especially if that person is someone making $5 an hour in India (which you know because that's what you're paying them!) It would be a pretty fantastical leap to imagine that guy either implementing your strategy with his own meager savings to the point that he arbitrages away your "edge" in each of those super liquid contracts, or that he could attract a hedge fund of sufficient size to arbitrage away your edge based on the super secret strategy he "stole" from you. In short, you're probably flattering yourself with the value of your strategy, but if you're good enough to come up with one you're good enough to come up with more if that one is "stolen". Pay someone to implement your strategy, see if it works, and once you've proven that you indeed can come up with valuable strategies you can use some of the money you earned on the first one to protect your subsequent ideas.

Neal · Jul 26, 2016

Simples said:
You say you need to go mechanical, but also say you need to get the system backtested. These are two different concepts. The easiest path would probably be to backtest your system first. This can be done with almost any programmable charting software. I'd suggest you try that first and see how the system fares over time during many different market conditions and reactions.

Automating the trades is very easy compared to making a mechanical system that is consistently profitable. The problem with automation is that the system will take all valid signals, at exactly the levels given by the system, so may have worse expectancy than expected. Especially if you haven't really done such detailed analysis yourself, you'll be surprised how much will go against expectations.

Why shouldn't the programmer share the system? If you limit your programming, you'll be limiting your potential. There need to be trust and tight collaboration If you don't know/want to learn programming, I don't see how you can have a maintainable system otherwise.

I have back tested it manually by looking at the signals given in different market conditions, bull, bear & sideways and different instruments. But as sig said the real test comes when system picks up all the signals over a long period of time. Besides that tweaking becomes real easy if it is mechanical & would allow me to test many more instruments.

Could you elaborate as to sharing the system with the programmer ? How will I know that it will be limited to only him trading the system & like sig said not attracting a huge hedge fund that he could share it with ?