I am getting my butt handed to me on a daily basis!

This is what I'm currently struggling with:

1. Let's say I identify an event at n as = PP3 and n-1 = Ab. I now see that I can find this in two locations in the 8 Modrian panels. I could either have a Set A (green) or a Set D (purple) type of trend. How do I know which one to choose? If I look at the failsafe panels then in some combinations I could even have more than two possibilities.

2. The next event after the PP3 is a PP1. Now the situation is different. This doesn't even exist. So the trend went: Ab -> PP3 -> PP1. What should we do in this situation?

3. How can we determine the turn type (a, b or c)? The Modrian table gives the TREND type but how would one know which of the turns are currently at hand?

4. Dominance vs. non-dominance. What makes a turn dominant vs. non-dominant. In the past dominance was: price rising or falling on increasing volume = dominant and price rising or falling on decreasing volume = none-dominant. This doesn't seem to apply in the turn type determination. Do we have to differentiate between "turn" and "move"?
 
This reply will be very important to you.

Our approach provides certainty in trading.

The central theme of taking the full offer of the market is the certainty that you know you know all of the time.

My original intent was to have purposeful learner discover how the lay the foundation and then put all the building blocks in place.

with your post, you show how the mind by purposeful effort reaches closure on a system of operation of the markets that has no flaws, no anomalies nor any noise.

So let your mind absorb my answers; they will complete your tour of learning to be expert.



Quote from frenchfry:

This is what I'm currently struggling with:

1. Let's say I identify an event at n as = PP3 and n-1 = Ab. I now see that I can find this in two locations in the 8 Modrian panels. I could either have a Set A (green) or a Set D (purple) type of trend. How do I know which one to choose? If I look at the failsafe panels then in some combinations I could even have more than two possibilities.

[color= green]The market chooses. you fill in your log using three columns to list each EE turn as to the type of turn. The OOE of turns determines the type of trend.

I posted this collection in this thread. Leaf back through my posts to find the accompanying text.


incomplete trends (FBO like)

Set A c turn to c turn Yellow failsafe; green routine

set B c turn to a turn to c turn mustard fail safe; light blue routine

complete trends

Set C turn to a turn to b turn to c turn Normal trend of three moves and FTT orange failsafe dark blue routine

Set D c turn to a turn to b turn to repeat of pairs of a then b turns to c turn. red failsafe; Purple routine.

Note Well: if the n-1 is NOT on the list, then there is no trend end coming up on the next turn n.[/color]

2. The next event after the PP3 is a PP1. Now the situation is different. This doesn't even exist. So the trend went: Ab -> PP3 -> PP1. What should we do in this situation?

As you log, you name the turn types. This may be an OOE of three EE's including the last traded c turn. If so, the incomplete trend is going to have one more turn to be a normal trend. You are now at c turn to a turn to b turn. the B turn is non dom to dom. What follows is an a turn or a c turn. If it is an a turn (Dom to non dom), then a b turn will follow and then a c turn may appear as a drift type trend. If it is a cturn (dom to dom), then you are being given the signal to reverse in a normal type Set C trend.

Notice you have finally come to the place where the Modrian table is serving you inorder that you can take advantage of its immense power. It is worth writing out your thoughts on all of its powerful facets. What will trading be like for you when you ALWAYS know with 100% certainty that a turn has arrived and you knew it was coming when n-1 appeared. Notice how powerful this mays the carryover annotation at the end of every day.
3. How can we determine the turn type (a, b or c)? The Modrian table gives the TREND type but how would one know which of the turns are currently at hand?

4. Dominance vs. non-dominance. What makes a turn dominant vs. non-dominant. In the past dominance was: price rising or falling on increasing volume = dominant and price rising or falling on decreasing volume = none-dominant. This doesn't seem to apply in the turn type determination. Do we have to differentiate between "turn" and "move"?

Yes we differentiate.

Moves alternate between dominant and non dominant.

turns have TWO components: before and after. there are only three types of turns possible:

a turn is dom to non dom,

b turn is non dom to dom.

c turn is dom to dom; that is dom to opposite dom. This is a reversal

here is how turn types define CW market parlance:

retrace (countertrend used by beginners) at beginning is an a turn; at the end of the retrace is a b turn. (all expained in trader.fighter's personal disease thread.)

reversal (end of trendsegment) is the c turn.
More...


At this point you a annotating and logging.

You are using all five intertwined OOE's

Now practice will give you facility.

The original question was about spending 20 days purposefully to become an expert.

we spent days and days learning the 10 cases of price.

we learned to give permission to measure volume only when significant volume bars were present (gating volume measure)

we learned the 7 volume names otained from a three part volume test procedure and how they formed (OOE) into trends which have 35 endings.

We learned the subsets of the 35 endings.

then we learned how to use an anticipation device called the Modrian table of eight panels.

four of the panels are designed as "trader protection" against unneccesary losses. BM and RTL were put into effect.

The ATS that was created (just use the flow sheets provided) was in the SQL language and it has several lookup tables:

1. PP's
2. A band
3. B through K bands
4. Modrian table of sets A, B, C, and D for the four types of trends
5 eight panels to show the "anticipation" where EE's lead ends of profit segments ALWAYS. (the n-1 to n test)
6. the volume test procedure
7. the price cases for bar significance
8. lateral subfractal analysis
9 the log
10 the annotation, and
11 the P&L daily chart.
12 the carryover notation process.

Thus a complete system of operation of markets is provided. you have the system structure, you have the process (5 OOE's within the structure and the results of the process.

beginning with 1 contract and compounding profits has been explained. In 6 weeks the compounding takes you to 40 contracts and the monthly income is nominally 300K per month.

Fortunately to most this is all gibberish. But to thers, they do the work and learn purposefully. Your questions are terrific. You will process the answers and then gain facility.

I am completeing a very thorough text of the theory and development of this approach. the underlying foundation and building blocks nned to be thoroughly explained in scientific and mathematical terms. the tools for using this did not just appear majically. By participating in markets for 55 years and participating in the neuroscience and psychiatry of learning and formulating and testing (SAT's) an accepted learning paradigm I was able to merge how to build a fullly differentiated mind to trade the operating system of the market. My 10 year 100% sample of students learning drills of PVT and pre and post testing SAT math, the average score shift was 1.23 sigma on a 6 sigma gausian.

So for adults, spending 20 days to learn 56 elements and 5 OOE's with all the required support look up tables and drills can be a common occurance. ET shows that there is no way to incentivize the usual potential traders. Most are going to fial because their motivation is "making money (greed) instead of building a fully differentiated mind specifically oriented to the operating system of the market.
 
for clarity, you may wish to add the turn types to "the Pattern which illustes the market cycle using Set C the normal type.

If you wish you can also create variations on the "normal" where the cycle has incomplete trends in one or both parts of the cycle.

Nodoji posted a CL chart in the trader.fighter disease thread. In that pic, there were three of the four types of trends. The Set B was not shown. This is an excellent example of how understanding the "context" in terms of trend types allows the trader using any approach to gain saftey in trading. If someone wishes they can drag and drop this CL chart over here and we can annotate the trend types shown on the chart. There are about 85 markets in which this approach works.

the big view of trading is to take anything you can grasp and use it as a part of your trading.

Any edge can be enhanced by adding the failsafe and the turn types.

further anticipatory progress can be made by using the failsafe part of the Modrian table. All that is required is to recognize a dom to dom c turn after a failsafe n-1.

all of the turn carving can be used on anytrading approach. In fact any of the 10 to 12 leading indicators of price (trend drivers) can be used when the trend is coming to an end.

STR/SQU and WALLS can be added to any approach. they add two ticks to an entry and two ticks to an exit, minimum. If you do 15 linked trades in a day then you add fifteen points to your take. this alone doubles your capital every two days if you are that active.

The formulae for adding this to any approach are public knowledge.
 
Thanks! I will try to process what you wrote.

I am currently wondering what in your world/mind/system the words "failsafe" and "routine" mean. There must be a reason why you divided the four trend tables in those two parts.

Let me invent something roughly: If you have no clue what you are doing or can not yet identify all PP's and bands then using at least those parts in failsafe will make sure that you haven't killed your trading account by the end of the day.
 
Quote from frenchfry:

... 4. Dominance vs. non-dominance. What makes a turn dominant vs. non-dominant. In the past dominance was: price rising or falling on increasing volume = dominant and price rising or falling on decreasing volume = none-dominant. This doesn't seem to apply in the turn type determination. Do we have to differentiate between "turn" and "move"?
More...
I think that dominance and non-dominance always apply, and are always reflected in some way by the volume and price data, on all fractals. Next time when you find an example where it doesn't seem so, maybe you can post it.

EDIT: Trading in anticipation means that you trade without waiting for confirmation. You see the confirmation comming (or not) after your trade.
 
Quote from frenchfry:

Thanks! I will try to process what you wrote.

I am currently wondering what in your world/mind/system the words "failsafe" and "routine" mean. There must be a reason why you divided the four trend tables in those two parts.

Let me invent something roughly: If you have no clue what you are doing or can not yet identify all PP's and bands then using at least those parts in failsafe will make sure that you haven't killed your trading account by the end of the day.
More...

Here is how to drill to get fluent and have facility.

1. Look at a clean chart.

2. guess any trend beginning (prior end) on the chart. Pick five or so.

3. use these guessed EE's.

A. assign the P1 on the EE or one the first appropriate bar following the EE. Learn trend segment left window isolation

B. Use both the BM and the rtl.

C. as each bar forms, when price gives permission, do the volume test.

D. If you hit a lateral, then on bar 4, go back to bar 2 and do C above for each bar. At BO of the lateral return to doing A, B and C.

All you do is build bridges between the guesses.

If you begin to "get it" on trend segments, then begin to name the turns as turn a, b or c. All guessed EE's are c turns.

Get out your pic of "The Pattern". Label the FTT's as c turns on volume. Label point 2 as an a turn; label point 3 as a b turn.

Think of making money with trends. you hold from c turn to c turn. A c turn is a dom (leg) to opposite dom (leg).


In the world today, there are few people who can deal with the system of operation of markets.

You have built all the pieces and your mind is finally asking the focussed perfect questions to fill in the weaker (this is a positive term for newly arriving inference elements).

Your two recent posts SHOW amazing examples of "putting the pieces together".

You can see how this was named "Tomorrow's Newspaper Today".

You could have invented the Modrian Table. you see the 4 types of trends. they form four vertical divisions on the Modrian Table.

you now know routine means the 35 EEs that come in all the bands. the bottom four horizontal panels deal with the routine.


And as you see we renewed the BM and we added, where possible the rtl as a quicky helper. All of this is just a nuclear idea applied to trading to prevent "missing" a technicality. No one wanted an A bomb to blow up in the wrong place. So they made A bombs "failsafe". then failsafe became used in many other fields.

So we added BM and rtl to price and made the "rules" for their use. This keeps traders in the correct sentiment no matter how stupid the gamblers are or how large the gambler group gets.

so you SEE the panels get divided up. In failsafe only a top and bottom level exist. BO, T1 is on the top. BM, REV is on the bottom.

The routine EE's are more populated.

Vertically each panel is divided into left for n-1 and right for n. this (n) is the c turn list for the system of operation of all liquid markets. we just also know the prior turn and have a pefect leading indicator system.

We use how the sytem of operation of the market works to always KNOW IN ADVANCE when a reversal turn is arriving.

This concept is a BIG IDEA. this tend driver concept will not be in any books for years and years. It will remain "UNBELIVABLE" for a very long time.

Taleb is just doing wrm up exercises compared to what you have accomplished.

There are no "black Swans" nor "ramdomness to be fooled by" for you and me.

There is no probability calculation for each of the bars we see. we deal with certainty.

We do not need any predictive powers.

Now the Modrian Table is coming into focus.

i go to art exhibits all over the owrld. I expect curious people to follow me from painting to pinting. I expect to be asked "what are you examiniiiing?

I built a representation of the n-1 to n phenomena. black boundaries. white thin spaces. at the top a place to write the trend type Eight blocks of primary and secondry color arranged as the rotation of two sides of the color wheel.

It is systematically designed to represent the reversals of the market system.

the left half is devoted to incomplete trends. the right half is devoted to the complete trends.

this table is so polished you can see that drift of trends is "beyond" the stanbdard "normal" trend which emerges from incomplete trends that formed then becoming com[plete or extending to drift.

the Modrian Table is the priceless universal table that shows all possible mrket snetiment reversals. It allows the full offer of the market to be taken.

I love to see people ID themselves in the spectrum of mental prowess. The gibberish crowd of closed minded people are elegantly impoverished. Look at the short list of thinking people who refute my conclusions with good argumentative reasoning.

Bandwidth theory, I lived through as it was developed. Braithwaite was stellar. I lived through the electronic transition from voltage to current analog. I got to see the birth of digital replacing analog.

Concurrently and interlaced I got to be involved at the Jung Institute and the Dept of Psychiatry at Michigan. I also got to run two of the divisions at UCSC the largest global cornsortium of colleges universities and medical training hospitals. As think tanks came into being, I was on the hotlist. 400/hr was a lot of money in those early days. I also liked being in the top pay bracket of public speaking. 7 speeches were the equivalent of living in the stratophere.

So this approach is based on bandwidth shifts in trend progressions. I dumped out all the elelemts, all their math definitions and all the interelationships of all the parts.

Sensing plus inference becomes perception. the mind builds as a postive feedback loop through repetition. We see how gibberish was learned by the gibberish sensors.

Notice how threatening this stuff is to those who sense they are incomplete and are adverse to work (learning to gain facility). some classic examples will immediately come to anyone's mind because of thier incessant drum beat. And the ratio is shrinking as the decades go by.

The above drill can eat up 25 charts on a weekend. notice the processing curve shrinkage; it steps down considerably each time a sector becomes facile.

long post but we are rounding the final curve towrds taking the full offer of the market.
 
Quote from baro-san:

I think that dominance and non-dominance always apply, and are always reflected in some way by the volume and price data, on all fractals. Next time when you find an example where it doesn't seem so, maybe you can post it.

EDIT: Trading in anticipation means that you trade without waiting for confirmation. You see the confirmation comming (or not) after your trade.
More...

baro San is absolutely correct.

the n- 1 turn is a "trigger" to turn on the search light.

with the search light on you find the "confirmation" of the trigger at the exact moment of extracting the full offer of the market.

In CW terms. we are one step ahead of the herd. For the herd a bet is placed and then the bet is confirmed.

We do not bet. we are always a step ahead of the herd. we have cofirmation as a salient part of the reversal moment we do. before the reversal we know we know the reversal is coming.

the n-1 turn is a trend driver leading indicator of an upcoming reversal c turn.

A contributor to the trader .fighter desease thread suggested how retraces could be compared to reversals. So I wrote up how turns could be used to judge the beginning of a retrace (a turn) and end of a retrace (b turn).

the Modrian Table provides the coding for taking thefull offer of the market.

all tends begin with set A,

A failure to have SetA leads to possibly having set B.

A failure to have set B leads to the normal set C.

set C's become drifts known as set D's.

Soon the dicussion of a day will turn to just a series of linked trend segment ID's and the location of that type trend's end points.

since this type of trading is pushed by the herd, we take reversals at the beginning of trend overlap instead of the CW trade at BO of the prior RTL (the end of overlap.

you can consider this thread the replacement for trendfollowing (lagging) to trend monitoring and analysis (leading).
 
I may or may not be the first in my advanced retro avant rear guard thinker reactor group but we use it to verify/disabuse the false not true binary function of a multiverse wave of digital trading signals or words.

Hey jack... why don't you take your phone out of our pocket tomorrow and show us video or you trading live... while looking at your tables which predict market turns?


There are things called apps... you can find them in the apps section for your phone... which will even let you broadcast your video live as in not bullshit with post facto paper trading.
 
Quote from jem:

I may or may not be the first in my advanced retro avant rear guard thinker reactor group but we use it to verify/disabuse the false not true binary function of a multiverse wave of digital trading signals or words.

Hey jack... why don't you take your phone out of our pocket tomorrow and show us video or you trading live... while looking at your tables which predict market turns?


There are things called apps... you can find them in the apps section for your phone... which will even let you broadcast your video live as in not bullshit with post facto paper trading.
More...

FYI

Before apps and before cellphones a set of videos were made. this 10 1 hour set was archived on WWW. Each tape is in the form of the big box like things that plug into a TV.

Still before apps the next set of videos that wre done were done using Camtasia in public. In parallel to that I made many many camtasia's of RTH's. These have been transcribed and illustrated. get them.

And finally ET has archived its chat room where this was repeated over more than a couple of years. You may be new and missed that. But you can review the transcripts if you take the trouble.

Recently I began a series of prints on trades. I started with just opening trades on consecutive days. Each trade was much longer than what you suggest. also each trade was called the day before to provide examples of carryover. get the calls and get the prints.

I like your suggestions but todays tech is not up to spped , i. e. the length of a trade.

One other thing dooms your request. I talk in a language of the system of the market's operation; to you it would be a foriegn language.

if I have a ten city tour soon, you can attend and bring your video camera. It recent places where I have participated; they have made videos tapes. my request to not have the back of my head appear was honored (as it was for several other welknown traders). those tapes are available by searching. You can hear me but you can't see me.

some of the recent global meetings may be available. again the participants did whole days of live trading and I was unable to appear for health reasons. These events involve a vetting so you would not be able to attend for two reasons: security and knowledge and skills.

finally, I did take some stills that correspond to some of the charts I posted here in this thread for the opening 30 bars. the pics show the screens, and the three 3 rings that contain the tables you mention. They are taken by an I pod. the i pod does record in real time as well.

The reason I do not ask others to do what you ask of me has to do with common trader security. If you ever meet a trader ask him why he would not do what you ask of me.

I commonly use GTM under another person's hosting. Often control is turned over to me. I wear earphones and a headset mike. In recent years, while writing code, it was common for us to use Skype, as well.

Bring up the prints I posted in the journal;to get a little idea of the difference between platform info, GTM, Skype and the apps you mention. As you see in the prints I am using a MAT system whereby I trade using limited POA's. Running 100K on a MAT system is what you will observe. Those I trade for sit and observe the trading as they wish. With the margin what it is you see I run at 94% so that is around 100 contracts. The prints, are pics like in th ET P&L. As you see by extrapolation my costs are about 4K a day or 88K a month.
 
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