Hypnosis Anyone?

Originally posted by bundlemaker
Andy, No it's not a typo. What we have been discussing here is not new age crap. Richard Bandler is a genius, it is a shame that some people are preoccupied with figuring out why something or somebody is wrong, a crook, a criminal, non-scienfific, etc.

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Second, to deny the relationship between neurochemical/endocrine function and emotional state is to ignore overwhelming evidence to the contrary. How the hell do you think your brain works, it's nothing but a vortex of electrical charges and chemicals.

...And for the record, Bandler is a mathematician, a statitician, a musician, a computer scientist, an inventor (he created the first holographic computer), and has numerous degrees in many fields.
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bundlemaker,

I really don't want to get into a debate about Bandler or NLP. I know little about it, you seem to know a lot and I have acknowledged several times that it seems to have value to some. You must admit the article about Bandler and his murder trial was pretty interesting and intense.

Certainly there is a fair amount of irony in the story of a man who would instruct others how to live and think being incapable of controlling his own life. On the other hand, what he created is no doubt a monumental work.

I never said there was no relationship between brain chemistry and emotional state. What I said was no neuroscientists were involved in designing NLP and the claims made about brain chemistry and reprogramming how the brain functions were unsupported by scientific studies.

I have enjoyed your commentary here and hope you continue it. I do think Bandler's history is relevant, but at the same time no one can deny the magnitude of his achievement.
 
I've been getting into this and so far it has similarities to visualization and cognitive therapy, both of which are commonly used by proffessional therapists.

Sometimes things just emerge through trial and error, and we don't really know why they work. I think NLP might be one of those things.
 
AAA, somehow anything truly worth discussing tends to be at least a little controversial. That tends to get some people (like me) a bit over entusiastic at times. I so strongly feel these ideas (NLP, hypnosis, etc.) are leading edge technologies to real human progress, and often see misinformation obscuring them that I get just a smidge riled.

So, I'm glad that this group is up for this kind of discussion, and I must, at the least remember there are numerous view points, each having legitamate (at least in the eye of the beholder) value. Thank you.

As far as the article about Bandler goes, I don't even pay attention to such stuff. That's why I totally ignore the news, even in my trading. I won't even watch CNBC for a joke, because of misleading (purposefully or not) information. You see an article like that, and it's in print, and some evidence is sighted, and we as humans are conditioned to believe it. Worse, we are trained to focus on what is worst in people. I may be slanted, because I have met and spent some time with Bandler. I know when somebody is trying to gracefully pull the wool over me and when someone is truly caring. It shows. Bandler cares. That's why I try what he suggests. The article may or may not have some truth in it. Facts are easily distorted. But, if Bandler was a murderer and he invented, oh, lets the automobile. Would that prevent you from using a car. I think not. I can hear your argument, we're not talking things, but psychology. I submit that we've been hornschwagled to think psychology and spirituality are different and unique and unknowable. I contend only peope interested in controlling what you and I choose to do spread such malarky.

Presuppositions (it's in print and here are the "facts" so it must have happened) are built into so much of our society. They are truly dangerous. Hitler used them, religous fanatics use them, our government uses them, all for what I would describe as evil purposes. Presups in and of themselves are not evil of course, but if you are not vigilantly aware of how they can affect your thinking, without you even realizing it; then that's dangerous.

Tripack- There is no difference. Hypnosis is essentially a tool to bypass your thinking, objective, conscious mind ( the mind that is judgemental, doubting, and fearful) to submit instructions directly to your unconscious or subconscious mind, which will follow all directions you give it in the most literal sense. Hitlers speechs were a form of hypnosis (and boy did they work) and when you drive down the road and zone out and don't realize where you've been the last 2 minutes, that's hypnosis also. In my opinion, the vast majority of people claiming expertise in the areas don't know a trance from a hole in the ground. This can account for a lot of legitamate skeptism.

Marketsurfer- I can't tell you exactly how I got my info, and I wouldn't stake my life on it, but I'm almost positive (as sure as any human can be). If it's not Jones, and can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt, it's an individual who made trading profits of $500,000,000 (million with an M) in one day. Understand, by his own admission, earns little from his seminars. If you ever attended one you'll know why, they are incredibly expensive to put on. His income comes from coaching people like 2 president, a Princess, many major professional sports figures, etc. etc. He get a cut of increased earnings, and it's a lot. Supposedly he's worth over 400M himself.

But I digress far too much hear. I'll be gone for a few days, but look forward to elitetraders members challenging my mind to dig deeper for some answers to your questions.
 
Hey, I'm sure you can go to a public library and check this stuff out for free. Personally I bought some audio tapes because some of the exercizes are really like guided meditations.
 
Originally posted by bundlemaker
Back to the initial question, I asked "How do you know when to feel bad?" This is part of the meta-model and language patterning concepts. Read Unlimited Power if you want to figure out what this is about.
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Ok, I'll order the book. So how do I know when to feel bad? When feeling bad can give me a positive outcome? How can that be? .... maybe touching a hot stove that makes me feel bad can be good because I'll know not to do it again? I must be missing something here. Could you give me a hint?:D

Andy
 
Andy,

Every single thing any human being does, is done with a positive intent. The worst/best example I can give is suicide. The person takes his/her life because they BELIEVE it will be better to die, than to live in the status quo. There is no exception to this rule, everything, has some kind of positive intent. It may not look like it to the rest of us, but to the person with the worst possible behavior (drug addiction, overeating, compulsive, even losing stock traders) they are getting something from it that they believe cannot be achieved in any other manner.

Again, change the belief, and it is possible to change the behaviour. Drug addicts are a great example of what happens when you don't work on the beliefs. As long a the addict considers himself "an addict" or "a recovering addict", the first chance they get, they'll take a hit, or whatever. But, work on their beliefs. Change who they think they are (I'm a healthy, smart person) and it is possible to stay clean just about forever. I'm not making this stuff up. It's what the research shows.

Now, about my question: how do you know when to feel bad? Obviously, this is very different from: why do you feel bad? The neat thing about NLP is the fact that content is inconsequential, the form is what is important. By asking "how" you imply something is a trigger, that it's a choice, and it can be changed.

This is NOT pyscho-babble. The lingquistic structure of our language has a direct impact on our neurology. Change the language, you change the neurology. Change the neurology, and you change what is possible.

Hope that helps a bit.
 
Originally posted by bundlemaker
Andy,

Every single thing any human being does, is done with a positive intent. The worst/best example I can give is suicide. The person takes his/her life because they BELIEVE it will be better to die, than to live in the status quo. There is no exception to this rule, everything, has some kind of positive intent.
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This idea is at least 1600 years old: Augustine of Hippo wrote about it in City of God- he referred to it as seeking peace rather than positive intent, I think, but it's the same thing.

The idea of changing your life by changing your beliefs is not new either- the notion that faulty knowledge and/ or incorrect perception leads to poor results in life, and that proper knowledge and perspective leads to better / more desirable results in life, is old as the hills.

Not to take away from the intellectual achievement of NLP- just to point out that the basic thrust of these ideas are very old, articulated by many wise men down the line. The main twist I see with NLP- and a major omission in the thrust of the work- is that they forget that no matter how motivated you are, you are still grounded and shaped by ultimate reality to a significant degree. You can maximize your opportunity space, but you can't change what cannot be changed. Tony Robbins can't turn a dummy into Einstein or get a midget into the NBA.

Rather than being presented as a groundbreaking new science, perhaps the true achievement of NLP is to offer up a new take on common sense, and thus breaking through the towering wall of garbage built up by psychologists of the 19th and 20th centuries.

The article on Bandler- trippy stuff indeed- sounds like a textbook case of hardcore conceptual relativism, Nietzsche style. When you decide your world is whatever you want it to be, while at the same time not realizing your decisions are being majorly influenced by inconsistent desires and violently gyrating emotions run amok, your world can become a screwed up place very quickly.
 
bundlemaker,

I understand what you mean by content vs form. There were some beliefs of mine that were keeping me back, and I've changed them. I understand the difference this can make.

I can think of reasons when I should feel good. Obviously when good things happen, I feel good about it. Even when bad things happen, I feel good because I know this will be a new learning experience for me. So I basically try and feel good about whatever happens to me... doesn't happen all the time, but I try. This approach helps me deal with issues with a positive attitude. So this makes me a bit confused on "when should I feel bad." I can't think of a reason to feel bad. :confused: hmm... I should feel bad when a certain habit or belief is resulting in negative results? Such as drug use, or even a belief of making money is bad?

lol... I'll eventually understand

thanks though,
Andy
 
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