Hypnosis Anyone?

Andy (and all the rest of us who know we have these same challenges):

How do you know when to have those helpless thoughts? Let that question really sink in and think about what it means.

This is an example of what I mean about no absolute good or bad. NLP assumes all behaviour has a positive intent and in some context can be useful. I spent years trying to use force of will, affirmations, and beating myself up to change. As most of you have figured out, it doesn't work and it's unpleasant.

In this case, I've asked HOW you know to do this. This sets up a presupposition that its a skill, something you learned how to do, and thus is a choice. It also implies you can learn something else to do in its place.

You are describing yourself in a stuck state. If you change your state, I guarantee you will change your results. Your post contains a TON of information about how you think and what you do in response. I will continue in this post about state change. If I forget, remind me to discuss global metaphors ("confront adversity") and modality shifts ("I feel as if"), I'm getting behind in what I've promised here, not to mention my trading, LOL.:)

When you are in a stuck state, the sooner you realize it and get out of it, the easier it is, and the faster you'll change your behaviour. There is a direct and literal connection between your emotional thoughts and your physiology (ie, the way you move and hold your body). Your endocrine system and nervous system cannot tell the difference between what your brain is telling it versus what your body is telling it.

There are two ways to change your state...
 
To change your state you can change what you're focusing on, or change your physiology. The latter is much faster and much easier, IF YOU DO IT.

Try this experiment: Think of a time you were depressed. (Oh, you don't want to, I thought you said this stuff didn't work? You know who this is directed at, and it's said in love and jest). Sit down, slouch, hunch over, let your head drop, close your eyes, breath high and shallow, That's right , really feel it.

Enough, enough! Shake it off. Stand up, walk around, head up, breath deep, paste a fake smile on your face, stand tall, move like you moved when you made the most awesome trade of your life. Now try and feel depressed. You can't, because the chemicals your brain is now producing won't allow it. This stuff is real, it's what neuro-pyscho immunology is all about. It's all bio-chemical and it's all controlable.

Unfortunately, for a variety of reasons you have trained your brain to feel bad about certain experiences and good about others. Like: I need to feel bad about losing money on that trade. Feeling bad doesn't help, it hinders the learning process. It has been proven learning works best with humor, not pain (different brain juice). Why not learn from the losing trade and feel good about it? NOTHING IN LIFE HAS ANY MEANING EXCEPT THE MEANING YOU GIVE IT. If you can live that idea, you will be rich beyond your wildest immagination.

For the naysayers consider Einstein, "Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge in the field of truth and knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods."
 
I'm on sort of a roll hear, and I havn't (still) been able to figure out what the hell is going on in this market, still waiting for a precipatous selloff, I'll address how to change a belief.

1) Decide- if you experience enough pain because you own a certain belief, you'll eventually just dump it

2) Significant emotional event- something like a death, or marriage, or bankruptcy will change beliefs for sure

3) Environment- probably responsible for most your belief system, and you did nothing to manage what you picked up along the way

4) Knowledge- if you gather enough evidence through reading, tapes, observation; you can prove to your brain that it's been wrong

5) Past results- If you can do something just once, it's far easier to believe you can do it again

6) Here's the neat one- experience your future now- create in your minds eye with as much detail as possible that which you wish to believe.

7) Incantations- I distingquist these from affirmations because of the very specific state that you're in when you repeat these. This is the hardest thing for me to do because it seems like utter silliness (due to my own preconcieved notions that still linger on occaision). But, I was told a very convincing story by someone I trust like a parent, that when they started doing this within 12 months their income had multiplied over 20 times. And nothing else changed. Brainwashing works, use it to your advantage.

Understand, beliefs can be thrust upon you or you can choose them. They will need to be conditioned in, but in no way are you limited as to what you can choose for a belief. Who was it that said, "be careful what you ask for, you'll probably get it." Beliefs are like that.

Underlying all this, is the concept that the map is not the territory. Your brain is a storage facility for representations of all the input your senses have ever provided you with. The problem is when you start thinking of those representations as the actual experience. You can't know the actual experience. It has been filtered through too many "programs". So attach whatever meaning you choose, and you won't believe how swiftly you make progress in any area of your life.
 
I have worked with hypnotists before and my two cents is that it is a matter or trust more than theatrics. If you trust the therapist you don't need much to benefit from the suggestions. If you donb't have the trust it does not matter if Dr. Frued is your therapist. There is a pretty interesting book called the Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle, I think it applies to trading because it discusses being in the moment and not over thinking. At the end of the day I have found that over thinking which is the gateway to the fear and greed path causes many of the worst trading problems. That is why I "try" to focus on the moment and keep stops rigid.
I really believe that if you can get into that zen state there is no limit to what you can do in the market. That is a big if :)
 
Originally posted by nkhoi

http://skepdic.com/neurolin.html
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Very interesting site. Looks into not just NLP but a whole spectrum of New Age type stuff, including hypnosis. The key statements about Bandler and NLP are basically that it may well help some people, but there is no scientific basis or validity to the many claims made about brain chemistry, programming the brain, etc. Significantly, no nueroscientists were involved in designing NLP. Bandler is a mathematician and Grindler is a linguist.


I am uneasy about some of the beliefs apparently promulgated by NLP. For example, the statement that nothing is necessarily good or bad. There is no failure, only feedback. It seems to me that this sort of thing lends itself to interpretations that diminish personal responsibility and accountability. Get enough of that type of feedback from the market and your broker will be calling you for more margin. However, I can see the value of looking at things from that same perspective. Nothing bad about a loss, just take it and move on.

No doubt your beliefs do condition you for failure or success. Look like a winner and you are on the way to being a winner. Look for the flies in the ointment and you will miss the brass ring.

I am also a little perturbed by all the doubletalk associated with NLP, something mentioned on the skepdics site. Read some of Bandler's writings and you will feel like you have been hypnotized or maybe anethesized. Probably just too deep for me.

The site also gets into hypnosis. Bottom line is they and many scientists doubt its validity but again, they concede that some are helped by it. Apparently, it's very subjective and dependent in large part on one's credulity regarding hypnosis. If you think it's bunk, no one can hypnotize you. From this, it's clear that it is more a conditioned behavior than anything physiological. If it helps you quit smoking, who cares, but if a skilled hypnotist convinces you your uncle molested you as a child, then there is a serious problem.

I'm not attacking either of these, nor do I want to get into a debate about them. Frankly, I don't know too much about either, which is one reason I have spent a good bit of tiem looking into them. I think the NLP type conditioning has value for some, perhaps lots, of people. I don't think the brain chemistry stuff is crucial to it being effective , and is probably just thrown in to give it some sort of psuedo-scientific gloss and distingusih it from similar training programs like est.
 
you bring up good points aaa, however i think bandler was not really a mathematician?

this is a pretty famous article about bandler, take from it what you will, the article seems pretty slanted at finding bandler guilty though.

http://www.geocities.com/bandlertrial/index.html

it sounds ok to use it for trading, but you probably shouldnt apply it to all aspects of your life.

as eddie murphy says in bowfinger, "Keep it together!"
 
Originally posted by bundlemaker
How do you know when to have those helpless thoughts? Let that question really sink in and think about what it means.
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Is that a typo?

Andy:confused:
 
Andy, No it's not a typo. What we have been discussing here is not new age crap. Richard Bandler is a genius, it is a shame that some people are preoccupied with figuring out why something or somebody is wrong, a crook, a criminal, non-scienfific, etc. It effects em not, because I'm not hampered by the beliefs that these people are. As Fritz Perrls said, "The problem with what you don't see is that you can't see it. The fact that you inquired if it was a typo, shows, at a minimum, you are paying attention, increasing awareness, etc.

I promised myself, when I started responded here, that I would not get defensive. After some of the comments recently made though, I can't resist pointing out some major flaws with these comments.

First off, Richard Bandler began by modeling Milton Erickson, Gregory Bateson, and others of outstanding academic and real world achievement. He is the antithesis of new aginess. He finds out what works and does it. He also pisses off a lot of people in the process, because he has a tendency to inadvertantly make people look foolish when he can do in minutes, what takes others years.

Second, to deny the relationship between neurochemical/endocrine function and emotional state is to ignore overwhelming evidence to the contrary. How the hell do you think your brain works, it's nothing but a vortex of electrical charges and chemicals. This is basic neuro science guys. Before sweeping statements are made, try doing a little homework.

And for the record, Bandler is a mathematician, a statitician, a musician, a computer scientist, an inventor (he created the first holographic computer), and has numerous degrees in many fields.

Tony Robbins is the personal coach of Paul Tudor Jones.

Back to the initial question, I asked "How do you know when to feel bad?" This is part of the meta-model and language patterning concepts. Read Unlimited Power if you want to figure out what this is about.
 
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