Do what I did, start in marketing. Introduce money, make connections--- this will enable you to meet the players in your space and become invaluable. You need to add value. Without experience, this is the only way.
How to work in a bank/or botique/or firm with no experience
- Thread starter Trademanstan
- Start date
I understand your point and it is a fair one. However, I do not think it applies with equal force to all traders.
The trader I mentioned, for example, has thirty years experience (including floor trading experience) and a methodology so robust it could likely survive anything (short of markets becoming untenably illiquid or shutting down).
As for losing one's net worth, that is a wholly solvable problem. A trader who is capitalized in the low millions and maintains a lifestyle that does not require more than $120,000 outlay per year for non-investment expenditures -- say 10K a month, which is still pretty workable as an after-tax sum in this day and age, esp. for a property owner who isn't shelling out for rent -- does not really have to worry about mortality risk at all. (Assuming they continue to apply the same diligence, skill, and risk control day after day that brought them to millions in the first place.)
As for losing friends and family who are pissed that their money was lost, again I would argue your view of traders is representative of some -- a portion of the trader population -- but by no means all. There are old hand traders out there with such finely tuned combinations of capitalization, experience and risk control they are no more likely to go broke than Berkshire Hathaway is.
Only if you assume that trading as a business or a profession is inherently unstable, like a radioactive element at constant risk of lapsing into rapid time decay. But this is not how it is across the board. Not all edges are ephemeral -- some edges are incredibly robust and persistent, especially when coupled with the very high liquidity that comes with managing smaller amounts of money (e.g. less than $100MM or less than $10MM).
Well on this we disagree. Certain aspects of trading, and certain methodologies, very much have a craft-like orientation to them.
In respect to your analogy, there are traders who have been making money with their bread and butter strategies, year in and year out, for decades - a longevity demonstration comparable to that of any sushi chef.
Again I would say your viewpoints are valid for a meaningful segment of the trading population... I would mainly argue you are describing one part of the elephant, rather than the whole thing.
Hmm. No disrespect but I'd take a different tack... if I had to start from zero as a fresh-faced twenty-something, knowing what I know now, I would do anything I could to work for a skilled and talented trader right off the bat, somehow get on or near a trading desk where I could learn some useful and important things.
If that meant living in a $400 studio apartment on a ramen noodle budget, offering to work for nearly nothing in an expensive major city, taking a 60 minute train and bus commute and paying the bills washing dishes on nights and weekends, I would do it. If it meant taking out dry cleaning and getting people coffee and donuts, I would do it.
I would start crafting trading ideas and analysis, working my ass off to come up with some kind of value add, trying to get my contributions in front of key people on trading desks, looking for feedback, any kind of feedback, ways that I could produce something of just enough value for someone in a position to help me out to say "hmm, okay, maybe you are worth the time and energy of giving you a seat in our vicinity as long as we don't have to pay you very much."
If the feedback I got was that my ideas sucked, I would say okay why did they suck, how can I improve, help me to help you Jerry Maguire style, etcetera etcetera.
Basically I would hustle like a motherfucker, refuse to take no for an answer, and do everything in my power possible to demonstrate that I had more hustle than the next ten guys combined, that I had both hunger and gifts and that my hunger was ten times bigger than my talent (which is a kind of gift on its own in the first place).
I would focus so intently on making my dreams and goals happen that the potential impediments of ego and short-term desire for comfort would shrink away to nothing. Someone who can actually do that, is a natural candidate for becoming a skilled trader as well, because such passion and dedication and brute force resourcefulness also applies in learning the craft, and walking through the pain it takes to really learn how to trade. (Of course, most people CAN'T do this, how many people grasp what "don't take no for an answer" really means and have the balls to execute on that philosophy as such that nothing and no one stands in their way? One out of a hundred? Five hundred? A thousand?)
But I would definitely focus on traders and trading desks, not getting caught up in deals or hand-shaking or anything like that.
Again just one guy's view.
With an uncle worth 100 million, maybe start out by finding solid investments for him, introduce the parties, and earn a commission on the profits. Not to mention his friends and connections. Do this to earn a living while pursuing the other aspects of the biz. I got my start, as a humble writer, when i was hired to interview hedge fund managers for a content provider for yahoo finance. Made some great connections and turned those connections into a business and training ground --- i
There is no nobility in poverty and the struggle. Everyone's been there.
There is no nobility in poverty and the struggle. Everyone's been there.
I disagree with this. I'd argue that there are some long-run alpha that can be captured and have large capacities. They exist because of economic motivations (ie, equity/credit risk premiums). They are also necessarily low performing (maybe ~0.25-0.5 sharpe net of costs over cycles).
Then, there are some super high, "technical" alphas that exist because of market microstructures, misalignment of regulatory incentives, or other externalities. I think this is the type of trading that you speak of. I believe these types of alpha are inherently unstable and subject to disappearance once the reason for their existence go away.
Finally, I do appreciate your point of view. But that being said, I'd argue (perhaps narcissistic), that my view of alpha is (correct or not) general to the entirety of the industry because it's motivated by the underlying economic structure. Yours pertain to the small small segment where individuals trade their own account + some marginal external money.
I think at the end of the day, ET does not typify or generalize the financial sector and its markets. I don't think you will disagree with this.
Then, there are some super high, "technical" alphas that exist because of market microstructures, misalignment of regulatory incentives, or other externalities. I think this is the type of trading that you speak of. I believe these types of alpha are inherently unstable and subject to disappearance once the reason for their existence go away.
Finally, I do appreciate your point of view. But that being said, I'd argue (perhaps narcissistic), that my view of alpha is (correct or not) general to the entirety of the industry because it's motivated by the underlying economic structure. Yours pertain to the small small segment where individuals trade their own account + some marginal external money.
I think at the end of the day, ET does not typify or generalize the financial sector and its markets. I don't think you will disagree with this.
I'm the one who mentioned the uncle worth 100 million.
He really didn't do much, though, other than help out with some studying abroad expenses in my poor college student days (an act for which I'm grateful). He is not the type to be active in markets, and the majority of his net worth has always resided in his business.
With sufficient passion and drive, you don't have to be related to your future rabbi / patron / benefactor. You can find and cultivate this person, who in turn will take joy in helping out a young version of their former self. Those who made it with the help of others enjoy giving back as a rule (under the right circumstances, and to the right individuals). It's a beneficial aspect of the cycle.
FYI.
Wharton deploys its famous approach in two ways.
the acusations you (student) make about me (faculty) are the norm and rampant.
Staff usually groups as partnerships. These partnerships carry out problem solving and, as a consequence, often the packages become study material in the courses that use the famous Wharton approach.
The best video, since you only remember one, is the solving of the relationship of "targeting" Vs research. As you will see it involved a big greenish building very near Betty Crocker St.
If you just wish lighter fair; look at the TV offering called "The Paper Chase". Here you see the wizardry of faculty (me) and briefly present students (you) playing their roles to get the students through the gaultlet of learning critical thinking to solve future real problems.
As you say you were at Wharton and know your way around.
If you read the Penn daily, you would know that the "man in the street" was often interviewed regarding the "news" at Penn. One scupture drew such attention and I was caught in the act of looking at it.
The roving reporter scooped up soime of my nouns and adjectives and poured them into a column with a title. My credentials were also noted. It generated some humor at UCSC and everyone figured out where my secret lunching spot was.
Give guess and see if you can figure out where I snacked. Think of where a predictor (casey) said the key the the Mayan lauguage and numeration would be found.
also what limitation does this mathematics involve for entire civilizations? Like why you guys can't figure out the holy grail or how to get educated to be equipped to succeed in getting filty rich.
Got any proof of your faculty status? No? Didn't think so. You can shut me up pretty easily if you have any proof to offer at all. And if you know anything about wharton, you'd know the wharton approach is to get doctorate students to TA classes on the cheap.
Still have no clue what is this "video" you are talking about. And there is no Betty Crocker St in Philly. If you dispute this, you can go right ahead and give us a google map link.
I get the feeling that you are either the biggest troll around here, or you are extremely unwell.
Still have no clue what is this "video" you are talking about. And there is no Betty Crocker St in Philly. If you dispute this, you can go right ahead and give us a google map link.
I get the feeling that you are either the biggest troll around here, or you are extremely unwell.
Yes, I was a card carrying faculty member. Pic and all. I'm going to assume you never saw a faculty card. Numbers were assigned the usual way. enough clues????
If I were going in the faculty lounge at Penn and you were guarding the entrance, you might have gotten to see it. Or maybe if you were conducting me to an assigned racquetball court you could have seen it before I changed into my costume.
Actually, the Wharton gem is the case study method.
Other readers of my post knew I was telling you where the HQTRS was of the corporation in the case study that dealt with the juxstiposition of setting targets and doing research (financially speaking). Betty Crocker ST is in the same commercial development portion of that famous city (not Philly). General Mills does not have greenish buildings.
My humor is a little dry.
edgar Casey was famous for naming Penn as the place where the key to the Mayan "discontinuity" would be discovered and moreso the Key to the Bermuda Triangle. Penn has a terrific museum and it does focus on the Mayans (So does the Berlin Museum).
Orient to walking on campus. Go from my office on 36th and market to the cental campus avoiding the western reaches of Drexell U. sneak through the archealogy museum and arrive at the little sandwich shop before you get as far as the Penn Hospital complex.
TA's may have been at the head of your classes but there are other settings. Sitting around large conference tables is also common. And it is intense. My expectation was participation if I glanced at the person and NO BS ever spoken EVER. Most of the time I wanted the next sequential question put on the table. There would be a heirarchy of Q's.
TA's were there to get the Q's listed so students could do what?
LOL... you may not have had the expereince of getting your work back where the TA (who grades your homework for the guy running the sessions) poiinted out to you that you didn't get your answers in the correct heirarchy of the Q's.
So it was like ping pong. Answers completed from a prior meeting's (lol not classes) formed the basis for getting the case forwarded by considering the next Q's going toward the solution(s).
Wharton used vicarious experiences in case studies to bring out what George Plimpton defined in his book "the X Factor". Obviously, george Plimpton couldn't beat Bush in horse shoes, but he did get to spend weekends with Bush at Camp David after he bought a cowboy hat. He sold a lot of books describing his relations with heavy hitters.
Do you have a five star Stetson? Plimpton bought one.
I got married while in Philly; I hired the pick of the litter of the first women grads from Princeton (an Economic Psych major). Sometimes she dropped into classes. Later she became the Ida Greene Fellow at Tech. I opened a branch office in Arlington. and a hershey got a grad degree for MIT. LOL.. she only let me attend a few classes since she didn't want others to think she didn't do her own work....LOL..
Once a colleague (faculty member who was part of an LLC billed me for riding around with me on jobs during one month (47K). His partners made him do it after he asked if he could be a fly on the wall.
i spent 1200 bucks for a court session. The first Q was: "Don't I know you from somewhere?" the judge asked the Q. the faculty member lost his side job as dorm counsellor and was made a TA. by keeping faculty status he could still be an llc partner; his buddies learned a lesson.
I said why the judge recognized me and told him his postion at the time. I was an expert witness for the judge when he was the DA for the county.
I am trying to keep this light and humorous but you are playing quite the heavy. Did you make your "instructors" prove they were faculty members, too?
Wharton is tough for students to get into. Wharton contracts with a lot of big time companies to help those companies solve their problems. the problem solvers are not students as a rule.
most of students can recognize their work is important and that the methodology is the driver for a student to become able to apply inherent talents.
So you work for some organization and they pay you or do profit sharing? Are you fees and commission based?
At Wharton, the sophomoric truism that "those who can't do, teach" is not in vogue. Wharton is a place where very talented persons go to learn and realize the potential of their talents.