How to value Bitcoin

[NoahA]

Difficult to believe people missed out on generational wealth because of Tether conspiracy theories.

I bet to differ. Its difficult to believe this thing is still alive. In a ponzi scheme, you need new money to always come in to bid the price up higher. For BTC, you also have the narrative that you never cash out because its going even higher. Don't forget, what did Madoff in was the 2008 crisis where people finally wanted to take some money out. But if you keep saying BTC going to 500k, you limit all the withdrawls.

But here is the real kicker. You don't even need new money coming in. If you can print fake money, (even faker than fiat...LOL), and use this to push the price up, well, then you have unlimited rocket fuel to take this to the moon.

So I think most logical people are justified in missing out.

 

[krugman25]

I bet to differ. Its difficult to believe this thing is still alive. In a ponzi scheme, you need new money to always come in to bid the price up higher. For BTC, you also have the narrative that you never cash out because its going even higher. Don't forget, what did Madoff in was the 2008 crisis where people finally wanted to take some money out. But if you keep saying BTC going to 500k, you limit all the withdrawls.

But here is the real kicker. You don't even need new money coming in. If you can print fake money, (even faker than fiat...LOL), and use this to push the price up, well, then you have unlimited rocket fuel to take this to the moon.

So I think most logical people are justified in missing out.

Quite the cope narrative you've whipped up there. You should read this post on narratives.

https://www.elitetrader.com/et/threads/how-to-value-bitcoin.357951/page-6#post-5369821

 

[krugman25]

Perhaps later, I will repost some of johnarb’s articles showing the state of the art marketing effort in support of cryptocurrencies. Such marketing to the public does not come free. Guess who might be paying for that marketing?

My guess is exchanges who want more trading fees. Not any different than stock brokers marketing the latest, hottest stocks to entice retail traders.

 

[DiceAreCast]

OK, let's go with your arguments for a moment. So, you have told us what cryptos are not and that the argument of payments and store of value are old arguments (even though those claims are made by those who hype cryptos every single day). What are they then good for? You say you have voting rights through your cryptos. Voting rights of what? What do you own a share of? Instead of just calling everyone who disagrees uneducated why not address the questions? Not accusing you just hoping to get some answers.

Most shills who are on this site and hype cryptos and call everyone idiots who don't toe the line are by majority people who have never even traded through a single recession or crisis nor have they studied the history of asset pricing. I put more trust and belief in anyone who has manned a trading desk, day in day out, worked through periods of extraordinary gains and large losses and came out ahead than any of those clowns here who only tell others they lack knowledge without ever addressing any single issue or question. I am open to consider cryptos. How would you sell me their intrinsic value? I won't invest in hope alone, so, if there is anything else than pure speculation to it, let's hear it.

A lot of the arguments against cryptocurrency I see from people that know very little about it usually involve talking about crypto attempting to be money or a store of value. Those are old 2016-2017 arguments. The vast majority of tokens today are not at all trying to be money or a SoV or a MoE. There are also differences between L1 blockchain tokens and protocol tokens. The only L1 token I hold is Ether. Outside of that all of the tokens I hold are protocol tokens. These tokens act similar to shares of a company. Some of them give me voting rights. Some of them give me profit sharing from the revenue generated by the protocol.

A lot of nocoiners are stuck in a time period from 4 years ago and really have no idea how the space has moved forward since then. They get their information from other people who themselves have no idea what's going on in this space. What's the saying about the blind leading the blind? There are a lot of very solid arguments against a vast number of tokens. Those arguments come from a place of knowledge and understanding of this space. None of the talking points I've seen here come from knowledge or experience. If someone wants to bash on crypto today they really need to take the time to update their knowledge and update their talking points. To people that are investing and building in this space, these old, rehashed talking points are laughable and have little or nothing to do with the majority of what's being developed today.

 

[RedDuke]

I too am eagerly waiting for this. After all the bitcoin bulls cheered that the legal case turned out well, the date of the first audit seemed like a good time to revisit this issue. But if the auditing firm in a joke, well, it won't solve anything. Will the courts really accept a joke firm?

It said audited, it did not say it has to be one of big 4 total joke. Cops y they is taking in billions can bring hire reputable auditing firm

 

[johnarb]

You misspelled NANO.

But seriously John, if you want to pump a crypto, why not pick one that actually works or WAY better the ol' grandpa bitcoin? Nano, ETH, hell even Litecoin is better and that is already 10 years old.

This is how you lose credibility...

I think NANO is a Chinese-backed project? In either case, NANO and LTC, they do not have the adoption, but if you want to risk your $ in them, I will support you because all cryptos are in an ecosystem that work with each other, like there are many fiat currencies worldwide or there are many stocks in the stock market or there are many commodity assets

Eth is a smart-contract platform which does not directly compete with bitcoin on its most important function

 

[DiceAreCast]

Yep, any of those fiat currencies can pay taxes, owed, and buy bread or rice on the table. A share of a stock entitles you to the ownership and voting rights of hard assets, assets that can be sold and that the rest of the world attaches value to. With cryptos you need to stay inside a bubble and trade with your own brethren and exchange one crypto for another. The only way you survive is to lure more naive people in to buy into this hype. This is the ONLY way to keep the values from plummeting.

I think NANO is a Chinese-backed project? In either case, NANO and LTC, they do not have the adoption, but if you want to risk your $ in them, I will support you because all cryptos are in an ecosystem that work with each other, like there are many fiat currencies worldwide or there are many stocks in the stock market or there are many commodity assets

Eth is a smart-contract platform which does not directly compete with bitcoin on its most important function

 

[ElCubano]

The only scorecard here is how much you've made, lost or stood on the side lines for. How Much? Johnarb, has a track record mostly documented here of being on the right side of this whatever you guys want to call it. At the end of the day he is pounding you F88ker noncoiners to oblivion including myself lol. You go Johnarb!!!

 

[BeautifulStranger]

My guess is exchanges who want more trading fees. Not any different then stock brokers marketing the latest, hottest stocks to entice retail traders.

Not exactly, at least in the case of Bitcoin, but let us continue on the previous topic.

Again, Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies have serious structural deficiencies. Sure, some of the technology involved has value, such as block chain, but cryptocurrencies, as seemingly envisioned or at least as promoted by its backers, has a limited future. At best.

I have been silent on Bitcoin for some time now. However, I feel compelled to speak out in response to the recent ramp up of hype and misleading use of statistics that could very well suck in new or naive investors. It is one thing an knowledgeable and experienced trader to take on risk, but it is quite another when a new investor relies on one-sided hype of industry aligned promoters. I guess my sense of justice compels me to speak up.

Other than myself, does anyone read pages of industry disclosures and actually reflect upon them? Very few, I suspect. Hopefully my posts, as well as similar minded posters, help remind new investors of the real, multiple risks they face if they choose to participate in cryptocurrencies.

 

[johnarb]

A lot of the arguments against cryptocurrency I see from people that know very little about it usually involve talking about crypto attempting to be money or a store of value. Those are old 2016-2017 arguments. The vast majority of tokens today are not at all trying to be money or a SoV or a MoE. There are also differences between L1 blockchain tokens and protocol tokens. The only L1 token I hold is Ether. Outside of that all of the tokens I hold are protocol tokens. These tokens act similar to shares of a company. Some of them give me voting rights. Some of them give me profit sharing from the revenue generated by the protocol.

A lot of nocoiners are stuck in a time period from 4 years ago and really have no idea how the space has moved forward since then. They get their information from other people who themselves have no idea what's going on in this space. What's the saying about the blind leading the blind? There are a lot of very solid arguments against a vast number of tokens. Those arguments come from a place of knowledge and understanding of this space. None of the talking points I've seen here come from knowledge or experience. If someone wants to bash on crypto today they really need to take the time to update their knowledge and update their talking points. To people that are investing and building in this space, these old, rehashed talking points are laughable and have little or nothing to do with the majority of what's being developed today.

Agree with this

The nocoiners like to argue the currency functionality of bitcoin, when clearly bitcoin is not being used as such by Tesla, Microstrategy, Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Harvard and Yale endowments, New Zealand pension fund, and so on...

I think some are gaslighting and some are clueless like DiceAreCast

In the OP, I tried to highlight the powerful functionality of this disruptive technology that was started by Bitcoin, but nocoiners will always diminish it to simple-minded arguments that forces the conversation to go down to their level

Nocoiners need to educate themselves to have meaningful conversations about the subject, but Bitcoin is not an easy concept on many levels