How to profit from coals demise?

[Sig]

nice try sig. but you were not successful in your failure not to answer my question througha weak attempt to insult. you pulled an old lawyer's trick if you can't win on the facts attack the person's character.

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here again is the question did you vote for obama or more to the point or are you an apologist for obama?"

i think we know the answer now. you trapped yourself in mud/ coal dust.

Zdreg, meet mirror. I stated facts, pretty dry ones really, about thermal vs coking coal. Still waiting for you to contribute anything to the facts I presented on coal or the OPs question or frankly anything that has anything to do with coal, trading, or markets! This is a thread about coal, or at least was until you decided to hijack it. You have contributed nothing but to question my voting record, which has less than nothing to do with a discussion about the coal market and coal types. In fact there's a name for that, an ad hominem attack, when you attack the person because you can't attack the idea. I would be happy to see you point out where I attempted to "insult" you, you seem to be accusing me of being an Obama apologist which seems like a pretty personal attack to me. And I don't know who the hell you think you are to demand anyone's voting record. Not only does it have nothing to do with the topic, but it's none of your business. We have that secret ballot, foundation of democracy thing going on in the US, in case you didn't know. Again, if you have any background in coal and wish to contribute to an intelligent discussion, please do. Otherwise you're simply trolling, and I'd kindly ask you to stop so we can go back to talking about the subject of the thread.

 

[DallasCowboysFan]

Third, the EPA has increased regulation on the mercury, SoX, and NoX which required costly upgrades to older coal power plants and there is some uncertainty on carbon pricing baked in as well. Finally the dominant players in the industry went on an acquisition spree just before the previous 3 issues became apparent, increasing leverage and decreasing their resiliency to low coal prices.
This would argue for the idea that current prices reflect what is really bad luck for the industry that all 4 of these issues hit at once, and all 4 would need to stay in place for the industry to stay as low as it is going forward. It’s very possible that coal will eventually go the way of whale oil, but in the short term it seems that a lot of independent forces need to stay in place to keep it down. Not saying it won’t happen, but odds do seem in favor of some kind of rebound. It is important to know the industry and what kind of coal is impacted by each factor however, as it's much more complicate than something like crude.

There are 3 states (West VA, Wyoming and Montana ...I believe ) that prohibit shutting down any coal plants and if any new facilities are built, they have to be coal based.

Something like that......I can't find the proper link to it. But those states mine a lot of coal and no coal means no jobs. And I am sure that the coal industry has their claws deep in local politics. Heck, the politicians probably have a family background in coal. It's not going away without a fight.

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I wish that the govt would mandate all new homes being built were zero energy.
It would not be a major change over current construction standards. Increase walls from 2x4 to 2x6. Triple glass windows, high efficiency HVAC, appliances and efficient plumbing. It might require installation of solar panels, but the price of those come down every year. And it would be in the mortgage. Ideally, it would reduce or potentially eliminate an electric bill over the course of a year.

Homes consume 40 percent of electrical consumption. Imagine if we could produce our electricity and potentially eliminated the need for dependence on a utility company. The less money we spend on utilities, the more money consumers have to spend on other goods and services. And it potentially decreases our reliance on foreign oil.

It's too bad that our Allies don't share the same enthusiasm....
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Less than a week since signing the global climate deal in Paris, Japan and South Korea are pressing ahead with plans to open scores of new coal-fired power plants, casting doubt on the strength of their commitment to cutting CO2 emissions.

Even as many of the world's rich nations seek to phase out the use of coal, Asia's two most developed economies are burning more than ever and plan to add at least 60 new coal-fired power plants over the next 10 years.

more....
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http://www.reuters.com/article/us-climatechange-summit-coal-idUSKBN0TY2TG20151216

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Category:Proposed_coal_plants_in_South_Korea

 

[zdreg]

Zdreg, meet mirror. I stated facts, pretty dry ones really, about thermal vs coking coal. Still waiting for you to contribute anything to the facts I presented on coal or the OPs question or frankly anything that has anything to do with coal, trading, or markets! This is a thread about coal, or at least was until you decided to hijack it. You have contributed nothing but to question my voting record, which has less than nothing to do with a discussion about the coal market and coal types. In fact there's a name for that, an ad hominem attack, when you attack the person because you can't attack the idea. I would be happy to see you point out where I attempted to "insult" you, you seem to be accusing me of being an Obama apologist which seems like a pretty personal attack to me. And I don't know who the hell you think you are to demand anyone's voting record. Not only does it have nothing to do with the topic, but it's none of your business. We have that secret ballot, foundation of democracy thing going on in the US, in case you didn't know. Again, if you have any background in coal and wish to contribute to an intelligent discussion, please do. Otherwise you're simply trolling, and I'd kindly ask you to stop so we can go back to talking about the subject of the thread.

let's make it clear since you seem to possess a talent for obfuscation. you brought up obama's name without any incentive to do so. ad hominem doesn't apply in this situation.
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The politicization of coal has led to very simplistic and incorrect conventional wisdom on the subject, for example the recent coal company chapter 11s were driven in large part by the collapse of the much more lucrative international coking coal market primarily driven by decreasing steel production in China, not an Obama "war on coal" as many would have you believe.

 

[zdreg]

you seem to be accusing me of being an Obama apologist which seems like a pretty personal attack to me.

it was merely a question for bringing up his name when in my opinion there was no purpose.
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mwald said:
If my forecast is that coal is going the way of whale oil but not sure of timing, what long-term investments vehicles should I look at?
your responseSig)
do your research before you jump into coal. Thermal coal and coking coal are completely different products with completely different markets and a 10x price difference, for example, and domestic coal is a very local and contract driven commodity.
The politicization of coal has led to very simplistic and incorrect conventional wisdom on the subject, for example the recent coal company chapter 11s were driven in large part by the collapse of the much more lucrative international coking coal market primarily driven by decreasing steel production in China, not an Obama "war on coal" as many would have you believe.

____________

Do your research before you jump into coal. Thermal coal and coking coal are completely different products with completely different markets and a 10x price difference, for example, and domestic coal is a very local and contract driven commodity. the recent coal company chapter 11s were driven in large part by the collapse of the much more lucrative international coking coal market primarily driven by decreasing steel production in China.
a paragraph above using your words would have answered at least partially the question about investing for the long term. then adding a comment about a possible change in the steel supply situation which might affect the surviving producers would have been of use. bringing obama into the equation left you open to whether you are an apologist for him.

 

[ScroogeMcDuck]

Coal isn't going anywhere, because there are plenty of people in develping countries who don't give a shit about your beachfront property getting flooded by global warming #firstworldproblems.

 

[Sig]

it was merely a question for bringing up his name when in my opinion there was no purpose.
"
mwald said:
If my forecast is that coal is going the way of whale oil but not sure of timing, what long-term investments vehicles should I look at?
your responseSig)
do your research before you jump into coal. Thermal coal and coking coal are completely different products with completely different markets and a 10x price difference, for example, and domestic coal is a very local and contract driven commodity.
The politicization of coal has led to very simplistic and incorrect conventional wisdom on the subject, for example the recent coal company chapter 11s were driven in large part by the collapse of the much more lucrative international coking coal market primarily driven by decreasing steel production in China, not an Obama "war on coal" as many would have you believe.

____________

Do your research before you jump into coal. Thermal coal and coking coal are completely different products with completely different markets and a 10x price difference, for example, and domestic coal is a very local and contract driven commodity. the recent coal company chapter 11s were driven in large part by the collapse of the much more lucrative international coking coal market primarily driven by decreasing steel production in China.
a paragraph above using your words would have answered at least partially the question about investing for the long term. then adding a comment about a possible change in the steel supply situation which might affect the surviving producers would have been of use. bringing obama into the equation left you open to whether you are an apologist for him.

Coal, zdreg, the thread is about COAL! And you've contributed less than nothing to the discussion of coal, instead you've destroyed value for everyone else on the thread.
One would assume, if you're thinking about investing in coal, that it would be nice to know that even if every one of Obama's "war on coal" measures was rescinded by the next President, the industry still faces significant headwinds from three other factors. I'm sorry your become apoplectic every time you see the word Obama, but if you're discussing the price of a commodity that a significant part of the U.S. population incorrectly believes has been destroyed solely by Obama, you have to say the dude's name. This is how intelligent well meaning mature adults discuss things, even if they don't share the same political views. They don't out of the blue demand to know how someone voted and hijack threads without adding anything, anything at all of value to the original topic. If your goal was to waste everyone's time, you've done a great job, but that's all you've accomplished here.
You're clearly trolling, and I know trolls need to get the last word in, so have at it and then the rest of us can discuss the topic at hand, namely coal.

 

[slavduja]

Coal Outlook...
Largest Consumer of US Coal is actually Europe.

Eurozone Coal Consumption DOWN!!

Chinese Imports Plummeting!
No good!!!!

American Utilities Sway from COAL!!