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How to prevent brokers from knowing your strategy?
- Thread starter mcgene4xpro
- Start date
Quote from atticus:
Hi Veyron, please show us your BARX quote screen. I'd like to see your layout. Thanks.
You can go visit their website here: http://www.barx.com/fx/index.html to get an idea of what it looks like - that's what most people do when they really want to know.
Or, you can do what I did a while ago, and call 212-412-3640, or 212-412 2363, to get yourself set-up to demo their platform(s). However, I will not be posting anything off of my personal screen set-up, retail or institutional, accept for maybe the ProTrader Arbitrager, as that is only a demo and not a live account.
Quote from Veyron 16.4:
You can go visit their website here: http://www.barx.com/fx/index.html to get an idea of what it looks like - that's what most people do when they really want to know.
Or, you can do what I did a while ago, and call 212-412-3640, or 212-412 2363, to get yourself set-up to demo their platform(s). However, I will not be posting anything off of my personal screen set-up, retail or institutional, accept for maybe the ProTrader Arbitrager, as that is only a demo and not a live account.
You posted your Peregrine account in the past... I don't think you deal with BARX. You're such a prankster!
Quote from atticus:
You posted your Peregrine account in the past... I don't think you deal with BARX. You're such a prankster!
If lying about everything is the best you can you, then I'd say you are a pretty weak minded individual. But, that's just my opinion.
Since I've never had a "Peregrine" account in the past, I really don't know what to tell you, other than to find a way to come up with better lies.
Now, if you can post the link to what YOU claim I've posted here before, then I'd be more than willing to discuss it. But, you won't find a Peregrine account having been posted from me here, or anywhere else for that matter, because one of the last places on earth I would ever trade, is through Peregrine.
So, if the Peregrine account exists, then YOU should have no problem producing it.
Now, go get to it. Go post the link from me showing a Peregrine account information. If you can, I'll write you a check for $1 million in full public view. That ought to incentivise you to find that Peregrine link that YOU claim exists.
I don't communicate well with liars. Produce the Peregrine account info. and collect your $1 million check on an open forum, in full view of everybody here.
Fail to produce the Peregrine account info., and you will forever be known as a Capital Liar, to me on this forum.
The ball is now in your court, because YOU placed it there - not me. You just lied yourself right into a hole that you cannot get out of.
I await the Peregrine post from you.
Quote from Veyron 16.4:
If lying about everything is the best you can you, then I'd say you are a pretty weak minded individual. But, that's just my opinion.
Since I've never had a "Peregrine" account in the past, I really don't know what to tell you, other than to find a way to come up with better lies.
Now, if you can post the link to what YOU claim I've posted here before, then I'd be more than willing to discuss it. But, you won't find a Peregrine account having been posted from me here, or anywhere else for that matter, because one of the last places on earth I would ever trade, is through Peregrine.
So, if the Peregrine account exists, then YOU should have no problem producing it.
Now, go get to it. Go post the link from me showing a Peregrine account information. If you can, I'll write you a check for $1 million in full public view. That ought to incentivise you to find that Peregrine link that YOU claim exists.
I don't communicate well with liars. Produce the Peregrine account info. and collect your $1 million check on an open forum, in full view of everybody here.
Fail to produce the Peregrine account info., and you will forever be known as a Capital Liar, to me on this forum.
The ball is now in your court, because YOU placed it there - not me. You just lied yourself right into a hole that you cannot get out of.
I await the Peregrine post from you.
PFGBest: http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showt...52&perpage=10&highlight=options&pagenumber=17
You recall? The thread in which you stated that you cannot close a Euro-style option prior to expiration?
The likelihood of you having the capacity to pay off on a $1MM bet is about as likely as your owning a Veyron. That would be nil.
But just in case... I'll send wire instructions for the mil.
In my 40 years of IT I have never heard of reverse engineering the actual data. I have reverse engineered programs and data designs but never the data itself because there is no logical design attached to data. In Y2k my crew reverse engineered old compiled object modules on mainframes back into crude COBOL programs. We could do this because the logical design is embedded in an object module.
But with the data being submitted orders, the broker knows nothing about the logic you used to submit that order. The only case where a broker might succeed is if you used a static non-optimized rule set. Then a reverse engineer may be able to build a model of the submitted orders. But if you use a dynamic optimized rule set, the odds a slim to none that a brilliant programmer could reverse engineer them.
Maybe with a long string of orders a guru with a ton of computer horse power could guess at the logic that was being used. But In my opinion this would be too costly and time consuming for most brokers to attempt.
So to answer your question, if you are still worried, then add dummy events. Using a random number generator to indicate a dummy trade, submit dummy trades that take small loses in some cases or submit orders away from the current pricing and then cancel these order in other cases. These non events will drive the reverse engineer nuts since they are random.
Need more. Then write the strategy into a central program and submit each order to one of multiple brokers. That way one broker will never see but a piece of the entire action. Adding dummy events to this order stream will further confuse them.
Is this still not enough? Split the order stream from the central program among different exchanges and different brokers across the world that handle the product you are trading.
But with the data being submitted orders, the broker knows nothing about the logic you used to submit that order. The only case where a broker might succeed is if you used a static non-optimized rule set. Then a reverse engineer may be able to build a model of the submitted orders. But if you use a dynamic optimized rule set, the odds a slim to none that a brilliant programmer could reverse engineer them.
Maybe with a long string of orders a guru with a ton of computer horse power could guess at the logic that was being used. But In my opinion this would be too costly and time consuming for most brokers to attempt.
So to answer your question, if you are still worried, then add dummy events. Using a random number generator to indicate a dummy trade, submit dummy trades that take small loses in some cases or submit orders away from the current pricing and then cancel these order in other cases. These non events will drive the reverse engineer nuts since they are random.
Need more. Then write the strategy into a central program and submit each order to one of multiple brokers. That way one broker will never see but a piece of the entire action. Adding dummy events to this order stream will further confuse them.
Is this still not enough? Split the order stream from the central program among different exchanges and different brokers across the world that handle the product you are trading.
Quote from mcgene4xpro:
Hi,
You play certain strategy and submit orders. Brokers see your prints and they could conclude/reverse engineer your strategy. If this true and you agree, how could you reduce this possibility?
What are the tactics you will use to prevent brokers?
Thanks
Thank you .. Very informative and to the point. I am going to study all options mentioned in detail. Thank you again for your kind sharing.
Quote from Veyron 16.4:
No one has answered the OP's question yet.
To the OP:
The only way I know how to do this, is to trade your way out of Retail Hell, and then move to a real institutional platform. If the platform is truly institutional, it will offer the Iceberg Order Type, along with several other Order Types, to help you conceal your true position size, timing, and critical execution levels.
Here is a good place to start learning about it:
http://vcapfx.com/
If you don't want to use an EA (many people don't like them) and you are still in Retail Hell with no other alternative to trade on an Institutional Platfrom, then the only other viable option I know of, would be to find a Retail trading platform similar to ProTader, or something that will enable you to connect to multiple brokers through the same platform, and that enables you to build your own Currency Instrument to trade.
With this strategy, you can do a couple of things:
a) Distribute your margin across multiple Retail FX Brokers/Intermediaries.
b) Correctly match-up margin account types: $1k, $10k and $100k accordingly.
c) Create a single trading strategy to be executed across one or more of your FX accounts, using a custom index that you create containing only the currency pairs that want to trade - as just one idea.
When you submit a Pending Order this way, your broker cannot see it. I'm not quite sure if NinjaTrader also allows for this, but I'm sure that somebody with NinjaTrader experience can jump in from here.
Of course, you can always go the Excel/MT4 route with FXDialogue's Mexel Trader, where all of your trades are executed from within Excel, against your Retail MT4 account - of course, you have to learn how to use Excel.
Other than that, you are just going to have to pull yourself out of Retail Hell, or fund your way out of Retail Hell. Either way, you've got to get out of Retail Hell, as soon as practicable.
If you can go Institutional right now, I would always recommend the FXAll Trading Platform (you can see it from the link I provide above). If you are not planning a hedge fund and you don't want the hassles of Retail Hell, the FXAll is simply the place to be right now using a Prime Brokerage account.
There's one last option. You can also use Barclays BARX Trading Platform (this is also what I use). You'll need about $300k minimum to start, and you can also use Excel to place your orders through the platform. You can also execute on FX Vanilla Options as well, so you have a bigger range of flexibility when it comes to creating Defensive Trading Strategies. When coming in through Excel, your orders will be hidden as well.
Your concerns are very valid and I hope this helps a bit.
I like the dummy random event tactic but i wouldnot take losses just to avoid brokers from knowing my logic.
The splitting part is also very valid. However, it needs a lot of coding experience to handle all that.
Thank you for sharing.
The splitting part is also very valid. However, it needs a lot of coding experience to handle all that.
Thank you for sharing.
Quote from Rabbitone:
In my 40 years of IT I have never heard of reverse engineering the actual data. I have reverse engineered programs and data designs but never the data itself because there is no logical design attached to data. In Y2k my crew reverse engineered old compiled object modules on mainframes back into crude COBOL programs. We could do this because the logical design is embedded in an object module.
But with the data being submitted orders, the broker knows nothing about the logic you used to submit that order. The only case where a broker might succeed is if you used a static non-optimized rule set. Then a reverse engineer may be able to build a model of the submitted orders. But if you use a dynamic optimized rule set, the odds a slim to none that a brilliant programmer could reverse engineer them.
Maybe with a long string of orders a guru with a ton of computer horse power could guess at the logic that was being used. But In my opinion this would be too costly and time consuming for most brokers to attempt.
So to answer your question, if you are still worried, then add dummy events. Using a random number generator to indicate a dummy trade, submit dummy trades that take small loses in some cases or submit orders away from the current pricing and then cancel these order in other cases. These non events will drive the reverse engineer nuts since they are random.
Need more. Then write the strategy into a central program and submit each order to one of multiple brokers. That way one broker will never see but a piece of the entire action. Adding dummy events to this order stream will further confuse them.
Is this still not enough? Split the order stream from the central program among different exchanges and different brokers across the world that handle the product you are trading.