How to know when youre not cut out for this?

Originally posted by janko
AAwwhhh damn it, again today, had a buy limit on the dow contract at 7500, thinking good support for dow. well as dow started ticking down and my order getting closer and closer to fill i killed it thinking that dont buy it now, maybe i can get it lower, yeah it went a bit lower but still didnt buy. After that failure i just sat and decided to watch and paper trade the ES a bit. I got to be screwed up in the head somehow, is it greed that i always want to buy at the ultimate low price? is it cheapnes or what? im always trying to get the lowest price naturaly and end up missing the entire move. I think i'll take a break from this for a month, take a vacation or something. will update this problem of mine when i fix it. thnx for all your help guys. love this board!!!:D
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I know how you feel, I had an order (on the mini) 8009, hit my price - moved up - canceled order - came back down alittle lower - then proceeded to 8200+.

Very interesting responces -

I have been in the same boat that you are in for about the last 5 years. I have decided that I will make it, might take some time but I will make it. I think that it is all mental. Not 90% but all! I keep telling my wife that she should sit with the mouse in hand and when I think (they can read your mind!) I should sell at or buy at - let her hit the mouse. I am fully convinced that I would be better off.

I decided to keep a trade log this year (for % and daily overall thoughts.) On a trade by trade basis, I am 62%. On a day by day basis, I am 50%. On a weekly basis, I am 65%. This tells me one thing - my losses are bigger than my winners (I am down for the year.) A couple of thoughts keep going through my mind - IN THIS ORDER OF IMPORTANCE - 1) Take ALL the trade set ups. 2) Hang on to winners. 3) Get out of loosers faster. This to me is ALL mental. Once one has the confidence in the method or system - it then becomes a mental game.

This has been a very helpful thread, if just to write out my problems and see that I am not alone!!

Make 'em pretty, Chris
 
Originally posted by vikana
Janko,

We all know that you cannot learn the play the piano over a week-end. After a year of practice you may play well but you're likely not able to put on a concert (and to get people to pay to hear you). Same thing for becoming an engineer, doctor, lawyer, athlete etc. ... it simple takes time & effort.

Why do people think that trading has to be successful very quickly? I don't know. You will competing with the world-class players right on day one, which makes it very very difficult. There is no minor league to trade first. It's play against the best or don't play at all. Read Marty Schwartz's PitBull for his journey.
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Excellent points. I hope that people will continue to examine, test out various techniques, and understand this is a multi-year journey just to learn the ropes, the basic patterns and the rest, while hanging on to trading capital.

Learning from all the resources, then sifting through them and test out, see what works repeatably, then marry that w/good risk mgmt is important, and seldom done well.

On work ethic: there aren't any easy answers re: just blindly asking other people for trade alerts, the main thing is to learn for oneself, and realize that like becoming an engineer, this takes years of practice and genuine hard work, with professional tools (multimonitor setup/hispeed 'net/pro quotes/dat broker) and the rest.

Quick questions:

a) anyone have any ideas on how to get courage to trade larger size? (eg 2-5K+ shares/trade) still my area I need to improve in personally.. I liked the suggestion from someone earlier re thinking of it terms of units not #s or $s.. other ideas?

b) I get the impression that many people trade slowly, eg they don't realize that it's fine to win with a round trip of 5-15 minutes.. any thoughts re all of your average trade length in minutes?

and insights as to, for those who like me, like to expose our $ to the market for as little time as possible, for fast trades.. what were some of your personal lessons learned?


good dialogue, thx all


aloha,

ken
 
Hey chris that seems to be right on, the 100% mental part, but its tough to tame, and get rid of that notion that hey if i wait it might be a better entry. today i took some trades and i was actually pleased with execution, although the last trade i took i gave it all back and some, but thats ok. I traded the dow mini, but was watching the es and couple of times had perfect set ups, beautifully called the retracement, called out the stop price and even the entry, but i sat on my hands and wanted to know how it would play out, well had i entered it would have been cool 12 points, but oh well coulda shoulda woulda, but i am getting closer and closer to it. I think i need to watch the ES a bit longer to get a better feel, narrow it down to few setups, and i think one big thing for me is knowing that a 2 point stop is what im willing to risk and just put it on. I think that will help a lot, put up the stop and then trigger the trade. I think i will give it a go on monday. thnx all for the help.
 
IMO the best daytraders in the world trade ETFs and derivatives. I will not trade the QQQs or SPYs Emini's etc etc because although they are liquid they require the greatest amount of skill. I have the absolute greatest respect for those traders who are successful at that stuff.


As the saying goes, everything is relative. One way to build confidence is to use a one minute overlay chart and find stocks that flock together, and then take advantage of short term discrepancies.
For example, the semi caps of AMAT KLAC and NVLS. If you look at the July 25 overlay chart of those three, you can pick the moment at a glance when I went short on NVLS. I made 18cents on a lot of stock. I didn't have to figure out if the market was going to go up or down, my move was obvious.

I find this works very well with certain pharm stocks and a few other groupings.

One way to check out grouping is to go to the Cnet site


Thats it.
 
janko,

If you have setups in mind, and you are watching the setups play out when you want to be trading them, then maybe you aren't that confident. Most people have that problem. Try reducing your size to 100 shrs. and trade every setup that you like and see if it isn't easier. After a couple of weeks maybe you will be more confident.
 
see thats my problem i cant reduce the size as i am trading the ES, i wish they had a mini of the mini, i am trading the dow mini but those spreads make it tough to get out if the mkt starts reversing, spreads will eat me up on it. and the ES with a 2 point stop can bite pretty badly after a few stop outs. Im under 25k so i cant daytrade the spy, or qqq. i wish i could. I have tried swing trading but in this mkt i dont like the overnighters at all. I think i might take a month off from trading and add some more cash to act and then try the es. till then i'll just watch and get to know it better.:p
 
Originally posted by peter77
For example, the semi caps of AMAT KLAC and NVLS. If you look at the July 25 overlay chart of those three, you can pick the moment at a glance when I went short on NVLS. I made 18cents on a lot of stock. I didn't have to figure out if the market was going to go up or down, my move was obvious.
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When exactly was the proper entry, in your opinion? I've highlighted two possibilities on a percent change chart, where NVLS seemed relatively stronger than the other two momentarily, before following them down. The second one looked maybe a little more tradable to me, but getting short on NVLS at that moment "should" have yielded more than a .18 move - though that would be presuming I do in fact understand you correctly.
 

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Kymar

Two things I would suggest on your chart to make it easier to do these trades. First, your chart is 5 minute. Must be 1 minute. (Some people use custom excel charts to make 15 second bars, but 1 minute is OK).

Also you have more than one days data on the chart, this tends to smooth the chart because the previous days variation makes it a bit harder to spot opportunities. You correctly did not include any premarket in you data.

You are using Pacific Daylight time, the entry I was referring to was at about 10:41 on your timezone. You can't even see it on a five minute chart, which is the whole idea.

That I only made 18 cents is an admission that I left money on the table, but I was sure of the money I did get.
 
This is a variation on pairs trading, only you only take one side of the trade. I use it daily with a software grouping.

All the guys I know who do this keep tab on the stock specific news so that they are sure the discrepancy is not news driven.
 
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