Cheese, do you enjoy cutting people down?..Its the only thing you seem to be good at.
How to bounce back?
- Thread starter Yisterwald
- Start date
Well aren't you aware that bulletin boards are about opinion and advice?
It is just that you don't want to receive what is often sound basic advice .. advice that means don't blow away your money or any more of your money on ill-prepared trading ambitions or as will sometimes be the case don't even start thinking about going into independent trading.
I'm not sure if I can help but I do think someone with your experience and background can find a way to trade profitably. I would also disagree with the second poster who said stay away from options.
We suffered serious drawdown's to retirement funds in the 2000-2002 bear (as "long term investors") made up some in 2003 then I begin to investigate options. Started with CC's but by April 2005 when the portfolio was down 12% said this sucks and I need to REALLY LEARN option strategies. Today with commission rates low you can actually implement "market neutral" strategies and make money during low volatility periods then if/when volatility goes up switch to trades that benefit with high vol's. I DO think you should investigate whether option trading might be a way to get back in. Yes, you do need to be reasonably well capitalized and you need to start small, but if you have the patience and temperament you have a good chance to succeed. If you have been successful there is no reason to believe you won't be successful in the future as long as you are willing to learn how to trade in non-trending as well as trending markets...high vol, low vol. You need more than just the hammer in your tool belt. Good luck!
Mister yisterW;
Hit the carpenter business and ad for it including lumberyards;
great opportunity there.
And if you trade again, continually look on new things;
try not to eat your seed corn.Many people have blown up an account or 2 , learning , me too.[2, LOL, derivatives ]
Many of these ''elite'' youngsters think concentrating only on trading is the best;
dont agree with that, they miss the principle of diversification.
Besides regular ES hours.8;30-3;00 M-F isnt much hours;
however if get in a losing streak CUT BACK CUT BACK .
In other words Rich Dennis said if you head is beaten in a mixer, get it OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Still do occasional home improvenement contracts, Real estate contracts[not a realtor, but usually use a realtor]
trade ES contracts, oil gas stock sector/long some short.
Wisdom is profitable to direct
Hit the carpenter business and ad for it including lumberyards;
great opportunity there.
And if you trade again, continually look on new things;
try not to eat your seed corn.Many people have blown up an account or 2 , learning , me too.[2, LOL, derivatives ]
Many of these ''elite'' youngsters think concentrating only on trading is the best;
dont agree with that, they miss the principle of diversification.
Besides regular ES hours.8;30-3;00 M-F isnt much hours;
however if get in a losing streak CUT BACK CUT BACK .
In other words Rich Dennis said if you head is beaten in a mixer, get it OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Still do occasional home improvenement contracts, Real estate contracts[not a realtor, but usually use a realtor]
trade ES contracts, oil gas stock sector/long some short.
Wisdom is profitable to direct
Looks like you gotta go back to novice all over again. you've been at it several years and you 're losing now? Its gonna be tough giving you advice- hate to see anyone that put in several years effort lose so dearly.
You'll be able to identify with Livermore's experiences ...made
it , lost it and then made it back again. As most self made traders know..no one can trade for you .
You say its you and your partner ?? try going at it alone for awhile; start all over but take time off first and become emotionally level before starting again. I hope that it turns around for you when you get back in. After winning for awhile there is a tendency to lose caution and a bias toward complacency and overtolerance to opposite moves takes ground- that seems to be gone for you but maybe was the initial push to where you are. A healthy mix of confidence and fear and the implementation of a good system-
probably a few good traders that you could latch onto for reasonable fees throughout the internet world while you regain footing. Most unfortunate circumstances.
You'll be able to identify with Livermore's experiences ...made
it , lost it and then made it back again. As most self made traders know..no one can trade for you .
You say its you and your partner ?? try going at it alone for awhile; start all over but take time off first and become emotionally level before starting again. I hope that it turns around for you when you get back in. After winning for awhile there is a tendency to lose caution and a bias toward complacency and overtolerance to opposite moves takes ground- that seems to be gone for you but maybe was the initial push to where you are. A healthy mix of confidence and fear and the implementation of a good system-
probably a few good traders that you could latch onto for reasonable fees throughout the internet world while you regain footing. Most unfortunate circumstances.
pattern nut
Guest
I know exactly how you feel
this is how I solved my problem, I just told myself, I can always put a gun to my head and die that is very easy.
so that being very easy I'll just slowly go back to research and see if I can find an edge,
no pressure, couse ticket to oblivion is already bought, good luck its a tough game
this is how I solved my problem, I just told myself, I can always put a gun to my head and die that is very easy.
so that being very easy I'll just slowly go back to research and see if I can find an edge,
no pressure, couse ticket to oblivion is already bought, good luck its a tough game
Pattern Nut,
What are you talking about? Because killing yourself is easy...therefore trading can now be researched and an edge found.
That is crazy talk
If your losses "only broke" you, as you stated above, then you are done losing. Most successful traders go COMPLETELY broke. Some of them end up going back to work for somebody else on a hourly or salary job that they don't like, just to get trading capital. Some of the end up losing their house, family, wife, self worth. They go into credit card debt. They end up driving $500.00 cars because they can't afford a better one.
And most successful traders do end up losing their life saving and numerous times. Even ten or twenty times and doing it all over again.
So if you are only ALMOST broken, then you have a long ways to keep losing if you want to be successfule.
Plenty of traders WISH they ALMOST went broke like you said you did. If you are ALMOST broke then you are still winning.
So noted. The ability to trade "market neutral" was one of the big attractors to pairs trading for me early on. In fact, we tried to incorporate options into our pairs strategy but, with one exception, none of the ideas we looked at seemed to add value. One thing that was successful for us was using options to hedge the outrights on whichever leg of a spread would be announcing earnings before our probable exit. That served us quite well overall, but we adopted it late -- not long before The Quarter Of The Losers -- and the impact, though encouraging, was not significant.
Heh -- great analogy, given my current situation. So what do you recommend as a jumping-off point for an options education? I know the basics already, but everybody's got an options book, right? Where did you find the real meat in educating yourself about options trading?
Yisterwald,
My advice to you is that if you truly have a passion for the markets and make yourself a student of them, you will have no problem with making a comeback. The question is, are you a student of the markets? This is an elemental question since you admitted that your "system" failed you. This is an illusion that I think many people trick themselves into. Did your system fail you, or did you fail yourself by too rigidly holding to your system.
I was reading another trading blog the other day and the title of the article was "Strong Beliefs loosely Held". Think about that for a second. From your posts you stated that you were a trader that benefited from volatility. It's unfortunate that you aren't still in the game because right now volatility is has picked up from the levels of the past couple of years. You see, there's another principle that is often used in poker that is very applicable, "It's not about how many hands you're in at the table, it's about how long you're at the table". I think that at some point it wasn't your trading or system that really let you down, but your psychology became unbalanced. Yes your trading and the markets contributed to this, but you were and are in more control of your psychology than any outside factors.
Others here have talked about the principles of the markets such as supply and demand and you are well served to pay attention to their remarks. You are also well served to pay attention to Strong Beliefs loosely Held as well. You need to realize that markets are similar to organic entities and are ever capable of changing. It is very easy for us (people) to become myopic in our viewpoint in everything from politics, daily habits and our trading pursuits. Sometimes the blinders lead us down paths we are capable of turning from but never do. Why, well sometimes we just don't realize we are in a changing environment until it's too late or we let our egos and personalities get in the way and adhere too strictly to one way of doing things.
There's nothing wrong with being a carpenter. It's a totally respectable and I personally think valuable profession. Lord knows we are always going to need skilled labor. If carpentry still seems more of a fall back profession and your mind/heart/passion is really in the markets, you will find a way. Sounds like you have worked on your psychology through the help of professionals and depression is no longer a problem. Fantastic! No doubt depression can be debilitating. Now work on your approach/attitude towards the markets. Become faceless in the eyes of the market. Lose your ego while running amongst its herds. Lastly, admit it when you are wrong (sounds like you found out how to do that the hard way, but did anyhow). It's easier to lose your opinion than your capital.
I appreciate you sharing your experience and thoughts. I consider what happened to you as being humbled by the market. Now, what you're going to do next and the attitude you choose to adopt while doing it is all the difference. It very easily could be the difference between success and failure. Remember trading is just a part of the process, make sure you are doing all the other things necessary to be successful correctly also.
Good luck and I hope you experience peace.
My advice to you is that if you truly have a passion for the markets and make yourself a student of them, you will have no problem with making a comeback. The question is, are you a student of the markets? This is an elemental question since you admitted that your "system" failed you. This is an illusion that I think many people trick themselves into. Did your system fail you, or did you fail yourself by too rigidly holding to your system.
I was reading another trading blog the other day and the title of the article was "Strong Beliefs loosely Held". Think about that for a second. From your posts you stated that you were a trader that benefited from volatility. It's unfortunate that you aren't still in the game because right now volatility is has picked up from the levels of the past couple of years. You see, there's another principle that is often used in poker that is very applicable, "It's not about how many hands you're in at the table, it's about how long you're at the table". I think that at some point it wasn't your trading or system that really let you down, but your psychology became unbalanced. Yes your trading and the markets contributed to this, but you were and are in more control of your psychology than any outside factors.
Others here have talked about the principles of the markets such as supply and demand and you are well served to pay attention to their remarks. You are also well served to pay attention to Strong Beliefs loosely Held as well. You need to realize that markets are similar to organic entities and are ever capable of changing. It is very easy for us (people) to become myopic in our viewpoint in everything from politics, daily habits and our trading pursuits. Sometimes the blinders lead us down paths we are capable of turning from but never do. Why, well sometimes we just don't realize we are in a changing environment until it's too late or we let our egos and personalities get in the way and adhere too strictly to one way of doing things.
There's nothing wrong with being a carpenter. It's a totally respectable and I personally think valuable profession. Lord knows we are always going to need skilled labor. If carpentry still seems more of a fall back profession and your mind/heart/passion is really in the markets, you will find a way. Sounds like you have worked on your psychology through the help of professionals and depression is no longer a problem. Fantastic! No doubt depression can be debilitating. Now work on your approach/attitude towards the markets. Become faceless in the eyes of the market. Lose your ego while running amongst its herds. Lastly, admit it when you are wrong (sounds like you found out how to do that the hard way, but did anyhow). It's easier to lose your opinion than your capital.
I appreciate you sharing your experience and thoughts. I consider what happened to you as being humbled by the market. Now, what you're going to do next and the attitude you choose to adopt while doing it is all the difference. It very easily could be the difference between success and failure. Remember trading is just a part of the process, make sure you are doing all the other things necessary to be successful correctly also.
Good luck and I hope you experience peace.