How much is 'Enough' ?

[Hansel H]

Quote from Voodoo-king:

Nothern Europe is a bad deal, 70% taxes is just the beginning, in addiction everything is twise as expensive as in the US, also its quite darwinian, lots of reverse wealth distribution, the poor pay lots for necessities like fuel, electricity and cars. More than 50% of the cost of a new car is often taxes, fuel is 3x the price in the US, electricity well more than 80% is often sent directly to the government. A mcdonald meal in Norway is 15 USD, while the rich are getting much higher public pensions.

Also, those countries don't have the demographic problems of the US. Virtually everybody in Northern Europe is educable and capable of holding down meaningful jobs. In the US there are subcultures of ignorance and lawlessness that will present America with enormous difficulties going forward.

Not to say it's hopeless - just that it's going to be difficult and will require a lot of resolve.

 

[Ghost of Cutten]

Compare the per capita number of millionaires in the USA to Somalia. The excess in the USA is solely caused by the superior government - effective national security, law and order, relatively fair and uncorrupt courts and elections, greater individual rights, higher quality of immigrants & foreign investors etc. Therefore, arguably 90%+ of the income and wealth of all US citizens - the surplus over the average Somali citizen - is down to government.

For anyone thinking it is individual effort and talent alone - go to Somalia and see how you do.

So, the only question is what is a fair cut or the government to take. Meeting its costs are sufficient. Since all benefit proportionally to their wealth/income, a flat tax is the fairest way to allocate the costs. It is also far simpler to collect and more economically efficient.

This applies to essential government services. Pure transfer payments such as welfare beyond enough to not starve or die, is not a fair allocation - it is robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Both whining millionaires and sponging parasites need to STFU.

 

[achilles28]

Quote from Ghost of Cutten:

Compare the per capita number of millionaires in the USA to Somalia. The excess in the USA is solely caused by the superior government - effective national security, law and order, relatively fair and uncorrupt courts and elections, greater individual rights, higher quality of immigrants & foreign investors etc. Therefore, arguably 90%+ of the income and wealth of all US citizens - the surplus over the average Somali citizen - is down to government.

For anyone thinking it is individual effort and talent alone - go to Somalia and see how you do.

So, the only question is what is a fair cut or the government to take. Meeting its costs are sufficient. Since all benefit proportionally to their wealth/income, a flat tax is the fairest way to allocate the costs. It is also far simpler to collect and more economically efficient.

This applies to essential government services. Pure transfer payments such as welfare beyond enough to not starve or die, is not a fair allocation - it is robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Both whining millionaires and sponging parasites need to STFU.

I will not STFU. But it's a decent post and I've made the same case before that Government plays an indomitable role in setting the necessary conditions for wealth creation.

That said, getting to the meat, how much is enough? I highly doubt Bill Gates consumes a fraction of what he pays for, in terms of services. Much of the Federal budget is pork and back-door handouts, plain and simple. What matters are courts, police and corrections, military, congressional pay, roads, infrastructure. How much of that is the Federal budget? Without the bailouts to Defense contractors? Maybe 1 Trillion, if that?

Making the case for status quo is beyond comprehension. America is on the brink of insolvency and a culture of graft and entitlement has corrupted the Nation. Things are not "okay". They are seriously f*cked. The attitude that things are "fine" is the problem. We need a radical sea change in opinion to turn this ship around, but we won't get it. Not before the market votes, anyway.

 

[Hansel H]

Quote from achilles28:

IMaking the case for status quo is beyond comprehension. America is on the brink of insolvency and a culture of graft and entitlement has corrupted the Nation. Things are not "okay". They are seriously f*cked.

1) Universal military service for everybody in every democracy (6 or 12 months, no exceptions).

2) Move the United Nations to Bangladesh. Set up a new League of Democratic Nations in the old UN site (with strict requirements for admission).

3) Jail terms for politicians who intentfully break contracts (promises) with their constituencies.


Like that....

I'm serious.

 

[peilthetraveler]

Quote from Ghost of Cutten:


For anyone thinking it is individual effort and talent alone - go to Somalia and see how you do.

I was reading about this woman in somalia. She owned an RPG worth a few hundred dollars and loaned it to some pirates. Her take was $70,000 USD when they captured a ship and ransomed it.

 

[Debaser82]

Quote from Voodoo-king:

Nothern Europe is a bad deal, 70% taxes is just the beginning, in addiction everything is twise as expensive as in the US, also its quite darwinian, lots of reverse wealth distribution, the poor pay lots for necessities like fuel, electricity and cars. More than 50% of the cost of a new car is often taxes, fuel is 3x the price in the US, electricity well more than 80% is often sent directly to the government. A mcdonald meal in Norway is 15 USD, while the rich are getting much higher public pensions.

I live in Europe. I just had an MRI taken and I got 10$ back. I pay 100 $ a year for insurance.

That has to be worth something but ofcourse it depends on each and ones personal preference.

 

[toc]

Europe has a much more defined social support system than the US. That is because US sponsors their defense budgets.


Leaving this factor out, on the net basis, Europe has much lower standards of living. This shows that their economic engine is much less efficient than the US.

However the US is in $14T debt so its economic efficiency is under the curtain of credit which is nothing to be proud of. Anyone can be a millionaire on the borrowed funds.

There are some EU nations like PIIGS which are heavily under debt, but speaking historically they have been 'basket cases' mostly given the corrupt culture and fiscal indiscipline prominent in their societies.

 

[Debaser82]

All Americans think they have a better living standard then europeans who are either unemployed and living on welfare or work some piss job taking 5 hour siestas with their 90% muslim co workers.

All Europeans thank the gods they don't have to work 3 jobs to make rent, without any healthcare if you are lucky and don't live in a tent.

Isnt that great? Everyone thinks they have it best.

 

[Wayne Gibbous]

Eight is enough.

 

[Scataphagos]

Quote from Hansel H:

1) Universal military service for everybody in every democracy (6 or 12 months, no exceptions).

6-12 months isn't enough ... there needs to be some time for training. Many countries have a 2-year required commitment. In addition to having the labor force to "do the country's business", the military environment instills a sense of personal responsibility. That is, you can't just tell your boss to "f*ck off" and quit. You have to keep yourself and your living space neat and clean. You have to show up for work every day, and on time. You must show proper respect for your superiors. If you don't, there are consequences... just as in "real life". Valuable lessons for all... some of which were never learned at home.

For those who can't qualify for military service, civilian service... like VISTA.

In America our culture has morphed into ugly. Some people do all the heavy lifting while others do none of it... and reap significant benefits simply by how they cast their vote. All very damaging.