How much info do big guys know about your positions ??

Quote from jd7419:

Of course stops can be run. My point was that there are many participants involved in markets, not just daytraders.
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If we agree that stops are known and run on purpose to shake weak traders out of their positions, I have nothing further. You talk like you're a volume trader (8MM a month is more than I trade) and if you are, you must have a reason for stating that Market Makers are "getting their clocks cleaned". Evidence of that has yet to be shown to me. I'm always willing to admit I'm wrong as soon as convincing evidence of my errors is presented. Happens all the time in the markets.

In any case, I wish you good trading.
 
Quote from echo33029:

BS or not, this is happening. In fact it has happened to me so much that I now use it against them. If I want to take a 1000 share position I will sometimes fire off an order for 100 shares hitting the offer. The computers know I'm in and immediately turn the markets on me
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This is where I am 100% with jd7419. The idea that the 'computers' are responding to your individual 100 share order hitting the market is ridiculous. The reason that the market tends to turn when you enter is that you are like all the other beginners - you enter at exactly the wrong time. This is a well known phenomenon.
 
HOWEVER, market makers see where a group of stops are and will initiate stops;to an extent. it happens alot right before a big move and especially between 11 and 1:00.
 
Maybe they are not responding to "my" individual 100 share order but they are responding to "a" 100 share order.

I don't know what gave you the idea that I am a beginner, I have been doing this for 12 years. How long have you been observing market behavior?

Anyway I am done with this topic and will go back to my basic status of being mostly a lurker on this site.

Echo


Quote from traderNik:

This is where I am 100% with jd7419. The idea that the 'computers' are responding to your individual 100 share order hitting the market is ridiculous. The reason that the market tends to turn when you enter is that you are like all the other beginners - you enter at exactly the wrong time. This is a well known phenomenon.
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Quote from metromotor:

I trade frequently as well, who is your broker? I am looking to try someone new when Schwab takes over my beloved Cybertrader.
I trade only around 800K shares a month so I don't qualify for the deep discount .

Some of the suggestions here so far are very good.. Averaging down or up starting with a micro position keeps you off of the radar. The MM's don't know who you are, but know good and well when everyone is trading 100 lots and an order is in for 500 or 1000 they have an opportunity.

The conspiracy theory is wrong in the way it it perceived. Yes there is some collusion to create head fakes, if there wasn't then it would be too damn easy to scalp large runs. If you have ever seen a huge order in a NYSE or AMEX stock of like 40k get eaten up very slowly and when it has dissolved the price does not run through it, it was likely some MM's selling to themselves to head fake a breakthrough.

How can MM's sell to themselves? it's easy... I have done it myself. I have sold myself shares in AH at 7:59 PM of a security I own 15% above the close price to synthetically give my account a closing value that carries my day trade margin 15% higher x 4 at the open. Your DTBP stays the same all day no matter fluctuations in net worth at many brokers, it comes from your net worth at the previous days close. Why would anyone do this? I did it just to see if it was possible. Did I break the law? Good question... Wait , who's knocking at my door .. it's the SEC ... ahhhh... LOL

Why do you think the market sometime runs up in the last half hour instead of ramping up all day? because the amount of capital it takes to run it up in the last half hour is 1/10 of what it takes to sustain it all day !!! get it? Now for the good part... hedge funds operate on 10:1 margin, so if they can inflate their position they can achieve what I did but 10x instead of 4x ... Since it is illegal for funds to manipulate price in extended hours or in the last several minutes of trading in some stocks they attempt this in the last hour at some point.

No conspiracies towards individuals really, only conspiracy to make their accounts look good on paper.. LOL
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Metro,

I trade at schonfeld through a sub llc. Not the big one there. I have been with the same guys for 8 years.
 
Quote from traderNik:

If we agree that stops are known and run on purpose to shake weak traders out of their positions, I have nothing further. You talk like you're a volume trader (8MM a month is more than I trade) and if you are, you must have a reason for stating that Market Makers are "getting their clocks cleaned". Evidence of that has yet to be shown to me. I'm always willing to admit I'm wrong as soon as convincing evidence of my errors is presented. Happens all the time in the markets.

In any case, I wish you good trading.
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Tradernik,

I don't know for sure because I don't have the data, but anecdotaly mm's are not doing well. My friends brother in law was a mm for 8 years but lost his job 3 years ago and now trades for himself. This was because his firm largely moved their mm business to automation. Two more traders I know that have since left schonfeld lost their jobs at Knight trading which has also mostly automated their mms according to them. They tell me that market making in the pink sheets is still a way to stay in the business.

Again I don't know for sure but traditional market making during the 90's and early part of this decade is mostly gone. That MM symbol on your level 2 that is messing with you is most likely an automated program. I do realize that specialists are still on the floor but their time is coming also based on the volume trends on the nyse ( ecns trading 60% plus of the volume on the exchange). Quants now make up a bigger part of the big banks mm operations. That is a fact and a trend that will most likely lead to most mm's either adjusting to a more mathematical backround or exiting the business.
 
Quote from jd7419:

Tradernik,

I don't know for sure because I don't have the data, but anecdotaly mm's are not doing well. My friends brother in law was a mm for 8 years but lost his job 3 years ago and now trades for himself. This was because his firm largely moved their mm business to automation. Two more traders I know that have since left schonfeld lost their jobs at Knight trading which has also mostly automated their mms according to them. They tell me that market making in the pink sheets is still a way to stay in the business.

Again I don't know for sure but traditional market making during the 90's and early part of this decade is mostly gone. That MM symbol on your level 2 that is messing with you is most likely an automated program. I do realize that specialists are still on the floor but their time is coming also based on the volume trends on the nyse ( ecns trading 60% plus of the volume on the exchange). Quants now make up a bigger part of the big banks mm operations. That is a fact and a trend that will most likely lead to most mm's either adjusting to a more mathematical backround or exiting the business.
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Very interesting, thanks for the information.
 
I like the good laughs one of these conspiracy threads provides.

Yes there are a lot of market making firms who are hurting. It began with decimalization and its gotten worse from there for them.

The back side of that is that its created a bevy of soft money and payment for order flow deals. In all but the thinnest traded stocks the days of walking the stocks up and down are over and have been for a long time. The barriers for entry into market making have been shrunk so much that they now provide liquidity across the board and there are very very few issues where there are only 1 or 2 market making firms in.

Tell us conspiracy theorists when there is order flow and more then one or two market makers how does 1 market maker walk the stock down or up to fill your order without trading through the others markets and other order flow?

By the way "painting the tape" or trading with yourself to mark your positions is a big no no and its easily caught.
 
Quote from TravelTrader:

There must be a supercomputer somewhere connected to all the exchanges and brokerages.

Or maybe George Bush just calculates it all in his head, the brilliant man that he is!
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LMFAO! that made me spill my drink
 
what about the opposite? if you knew big money was about to enter on a stock, but it wasn't public information..is it front running/illegal?
 
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