How much info do big guys know about your positions ??

[akeyla]

Quote from jd7419:

This is utter bs and paranoia. At any given time there are multitudes of participants executing different strategies in the stock you trade. The hubris you guys have in thinking they care about your 500 share order is bullshit.

There are swing traders entering orders who have holding times of up to 5 days. There are high frequency algorithm traders who enter 1000s of orders a day in the stock you are looking at. There are normal prop discretionary traders who exit and enter with their key strokes. There are vwap institutional orders. There are program traders. There are cash/futures arbs. There are fundamental buyers and sellers of stocks. There are mom and pop 100 share pikers entering orders. There are dark pools where alot of volume trades off exchange that influence price direction.

The mm/specialist doesn't know and doesn't care about your order and is probably getting his clock cleaned for the trading day. Also you are telling me that a stock that trades 2 mil shares a day will trade down 70 cents after you execute your 500 share order and no other participants come in to take advantage of these "low" prices. Your 500 share order equals less than .0004 percent of the daily volume. You think a mm really cares about your volume.

What you are talking about is 'utter BS'. Just shows that you have not spent enough time understanding how the markets work.
Individuals who have spent time, money and energy in understanding the markets will realize what is going on in the "markets of today".
I am sure you will disagree but don't worry this will be my last post on this thread - no use in getting into a war of vitriolic words with people who know zilch but think they know it all.

 

[FanOfFridays]

Quote from jd7419:

This is utter bs and paranoia. The mm/specialist is probably getting his clock cleaned for the trading day.

So you're saying stops are never run?

If so, I find it laughable. If you were making a market in a highly liquid issue, and you could see the order book, and you had a better idea than the average piker where the stock was going, and you knew that you could shake a few thousand shares out and make $0.50 on them, are you saying you wouldn't do it? Why the hell wouldn't you? The majority of pikers put their stops in the same place. Run them and make a few thousand dollars a day. You're saying that a few Gs a day isn't worth it to the MM?

Your post ignores the fact that paper is marketed and the MMs know who is marketing paper and when they are doing it.

Don't get me wrong - most newbs think that the reason the market goes against them the second they enter their position is that someone can 'see' their order and is shaking them out, as in them personally, which is of course wrong. The reason is that they enter at exactly the wrong time. I know, I've been there. But this doesn't mean that stops aren't run.

Lastly, not sure why you think that market makers are 'probably' getting their clocks cleaned. I think they're probably making money.

 

[jd7419]

Quote from traderNik:

So you're saying stops are never run?

If so, I find it laughable. If you were making a market in a highly liquid issue, and you could see the order book, and you had a better idea than the average piker where the stock was going, and you knew that you could shake a few thousand shares out and make $0.50 on them, are you saying you wouldn't do it? Why the hell wouldn't you? The majority of pikers put their stops in the same place. Run them and make a few thousand dollars a day. You're saying that a few Gs a day isn't worth it to the MM?

Your post ignores the fact that paper is marketed and the MMs know who is marketing paper and when they are doing it.

Don't get me wrong - most newbs think that the reason the market goes against them the second they enter their position is that someone can 'see' their order and is shaking them out, as in them personally, which is of course wrong. The reason is that they enter at exactly the wrong time. I know, I've been there. But this doesn't mean that stops aren't run.

Lastly, not sure why you think that market makers are 'probably' getting their clocks cleaned. I think they're probably making money.

Of course stops can be run. My point was that there are many participants involved in markets, not just daytraders.

 

[jd7419]

Quote from akeyla:

What you are talking about is 'utter BS'. Just shows that you have not spent enough time understanding how the markets work.
Individuals who have spent time, money and energy in understanding the markets will realize what is going on in the "markets of today".
I am sure you will disagree but don't worry this will be my last post on this thread - no use in getting into a war of vitriolic words with people who know zilch but think they know it all.

8 years I have been trading full time. Never a losing year. Provide for my family and love the fact you think I know nothing about markets. I trade 8 million shares a month and make a great living. My bet is you don't even trade.

 

[mschey]

Quote from uniafly:

Hi !
How much information market makers ( and other big guys ) know about your account and your positions ?

For example there is an XYZ stock. Does the Market maker know how many people are short that stock at any given time.

Do they know how much leverage is used by traders or investors for long or short positions ?

How do they determine how much down or up they need to push the stock in order to force traders or swing investors to get out of their positions ?

Of course I understand that market makers don’t look at the individual accounts of traders etc. I thought maybe they have some kind of Software that can determine how much up or down they need to push the stock in order to force investors to get out of their positions.

Of course some of you will say there is no manipulation, market makers just determine the movement of the market and they go with it. I don’t agree with that. I think from time to time individual stocks get heavily manipulated. And trading goes against all odds and rational explanation.


Thank you !

Market makers always know your positions, know where your orders are, know where your stops are, and know just what it will take to get you to throw in the towel.

They are all knowing, they are omnipotent, the are the gods of trading!

 

[zdreg]

Quote from dtrader98:

"Many will say that this is just paranoia, however too many times I have seen prices start to move in my favor but stop dead at exactly my entry price. I will either stay there or repeatedly bounce off this number, never allowing a profit. As soon as you close the position, magically prices will move through this price point "

Don't want to open a debate for the contentious posters here, but I'll just say:
You're not alone in your observations.

1) No way a human can think/act in milliseconds to just happen to fade/repel your order entry, like two magnets on opposite poles. Specific aggregate order information and sense/act algorithms are required to react this quickly. I've often thought PTDR status was more useful as a tag to filter/identify short term retail traders than help them against losses (but that's just the cynic in me speaking).

2) Ever notice how 95% of retail traders fail, yet GS trading desk always seems to be fantastically successful. Gee, maybe they just harbor the world's most intelligent and fast thinking TA geniuses: NOT.

Not to say that you can't be profitable (you can find an edge using strategy/selection/money mgmt. even when the odds are stacked against you), but anyone who tries to say that there is a level playing field between retail traders and market makers is either naive or just downright snowballing themselves.

"I have never adhered to the view that wall street is uniquely evil, just as I have never found it possible to accept with complete confidence the alternative view, rather more palatable in sound financial circles, that it is uniquely wise." -- J.K. Galbraith

Opening quote from 'Greed Merchants'

http://www.eraider.com/images/articles/BookReviewAuthorInterview1.pdf

 

[Warrior4g]

when you say your stock dropped .70 cents out of the blue,that can happen with a thiby traded stock or an NYS stock where the specialist can hold orders. to avoid being shaken out,try this:market makers do know stops and will attempt to sake a few orders out. taht is what they do i only use stops after a stock has consolidated for the day and it looks like it is breaking resisitance;i then put in stops just below consolidation areas.
1)average in
2avoid trading from 11-1:30
3)careful when buying the open.

 

[echo33029]

BS or not, this is happening. In fact it has happened to me so much that I now use it against them. If I want to take a 1000 share position I will sometimes fire off an order for 100 shares hitting the offer. My order will be filled and the market will immediately drop (the computers are programmed to do this), I will then fire off another 100 share order to see if it will drop again, and I will usually end up filling the balance of my order at a much better average price than if I had sent in the entire order in one shot.

I have been trading actively since 1995 and what I am seeing now is very different to how the MMs used to operate before. Whether or not they care about my 100, 500 or 1000 share order is not the point, the fact is that they have programmed their computer systems to do this and can monitor your position automatically.

Echo

Quote from jd7419:

This is utter bs and paranoia. At any given time there are multitudes of participants executing different strategies in the stock you trade. The hubris you guys have in thinking they care about your 500 share order is bullshit.

There are swing traders entering orders who have holding times of up to 5 days. There are high frequency algorithm traders who enter 1000s of orders a day in the stock you are looking at. There are normal prop discretionary traders who exit and enter with their key strokes. There are vwap institutional orders. There are program traders. There are cash/futures arbs. There are fundamental buyers and sellers of stocks. There are mom and pop 100 share pikers entering orders. There are dark pools where alot of volume trades off exchange that influence price direction.

The mm/specialist doesn't know and doesn't care about your order and is probably getting his clock cleaned for the trading day. Also you are telling me that a stock that trades 2 mil shares a day will trade down 70 cents after you execute your 500 share order and no other participants come in to take advantage of these "low" prices. Your 500 share order equals less than .0004 percent of the daily volume. You think a mm really cares about your volume.

 

[echo33029]

I realize that a thinly traded stock can drop out of the blue, but when it happens repeatedly the instant your order is executed you know that the game is being played.

I use this against them in that I will fire off small orders and average in to the position, getting a better average price.

Echo

Quote from enforcer99:

when you say your stock dropped .70 cents out of the blue,that can happen with a thiby traded stock or an NYS stock where the specialist can hold orders. to avoid being shaken out,try this:market makers do know stops and will attempt to sake a few orders out. taht is what they do i only use stops after a stock has consolidated for the day and it looks like it is breaking resisitance;i then put in stops just below consolidation areas.
1)average in
2avoid trading from 11-1:30
3)careful when buying the open.

 

[metromotor]

Quote from jd7419:

8 years I have been trading full time. Never a losing year. Provide for my family and love the fact you think I know nothing about markets. I trade 8 million shares a month and make a great living. My bet is you don't even trade.

I trade frequently as well, who is your broker? I am looking to try someone new when Schwab takes over my beloved Cybertrader.
I trade only around 800K shares a month so I don't qualify for the deep discount .

Some of the suggestions here so far are very good.. Averaging down or up starting with a micro position keeps you off of the radar. The MM's don't know who you are, but know good and well when everyone is trading 100 lots and an order is in for 500 or 1000 they have an opportunity.

The conspiracy theory is wrong in the way it it perceived. Yes there is some collusion to create head fakes, if there wasn't then it would be too damn easy to scalp large runs. If you have ever seen a huge order in a NYSE or AMEX stock of like 40k get eaten up very slowly and when it has dissolved the price does not run through it, it was likely some MM's selling to themselves to head fake a breakthrough.

How can MM's sell to themselves? it's easy... I have done it myself. I have sold myself shares in AH at 7:59 PM of a security I own 15% above the close price to synthetically give my account a closing value that carries my day trade margin 15% higher x 4 at the open. Your DTBP stays the same all day no matter fluctuations in net worth at many brokers, it comes from your net worth at the previous days close. Why would anyone do this? I did it just to see if it was possible. Did I break the law? Good question... Wait , who's knocking at my door .. it's the SEC ... ahhhh... LOL

Why do you think the market sometime runs up in the last half hour instead of ramping up all day? because the amount of capital it takes to run it up in the last half hour is 1/10 of what it takes to sustain it all day !!! get it? Now for the good part... hedge funds operate on 10:1 margin, so if they can inflate their position they can achieve what I did but 10x instead of 4x ... Since it is illegal for funds to manipulate price in extended hours or in the last several minutes of trading in some stocks they attempt this in the last hour at some point.

No conspiracies towards individuals really, only conspiracy to make their accounts look good on paper.. LOL