Okwon, have you read through all the posts, or just a sample few? Even though a CONSISTENT $15g a week scalping stocks in 2003 IS very unusual even at the prop firms, this guy is saying that he does it with ONE MONITOR, on 3 HRS SLEEP, from HOME with cable modem, with $100,000 (ie limited leverage), while partying all the time and doing real estate (and not watching the market much of the time), SCALPING with under 2 yrs experience WITHOUT "using market data software." If you think this is routine, then either you were lied to at these prop firms or you are clueless!
How much do you REALLY make trading?
- Thread starter thunderbolt
- Start date
Okwon, have you read through all the posts, or just a sample few? Even though a CONSISTENT $15g a week scalping stocks in 2003 IS very unusual even at the prop firms, this guy is saying that he does it with ONE MONITOR, on 3 HRS SLEEP, from HOME with cable modem, with $100,000 (ie limited leverage), while partying all the time and doing real estate (and not watching the market much of the time), SCALPING with under 2 yrs experience WITHOUT "using market data software." If you think this is routine, then either you were lied to at these prop firms or you are clueless!
I originally just sampled a few. But after reading them all, I see what all the fuss is about.
As far as the 15g's per week, I never said that this was routine. Yes, it is exceptional, but it isn't impossible or as uncommon as people like yourself make it out to be. There were guys doing it in 2003. I checked p&ls so I doubt they were lying. There were 3 people out of around 9 p&ls I was shown at different firms that made about 10-15k per week or more for 2003/2002 consistently. I also sat next to most of them for a day and watched them trade. I checked out about 10 different firms, asked to see p&ls for their trainers, although all of them didn't show them to me, and asked if I could sit next to and watch them trade for a day. I would say that I thouroghly researched.
Geez, people get so sensitive when they hear about people that are having success when they aren't.
I would kinda agree with you Silk... but I think it can be done on less (say $50k-$75k) with one of the following:
a) a very sound psychological make-up
b) very easy market conditions
I started during the bull - (b) above - with $20k... obviously trying to play with $20k these days is near enough an impossibility... that's why I kinda agree with you... these days, to do with $20k what you could do back in the bull probably requires $100k on margin (just a guess)...
Silk it is worth thinking about how the capital traded changes.
If a person is not doing too well he thinks in terms of his capital.
If a person is making money, he is in a constant transition. Those who pull capital periodically are marginal people as well. They, were they making money, would be relating to where it went in the next application of capital they are feeding to make money.
Do you hear too much about how people have to cap their money pool in the algorithm they trade with? Not too often. You can bet that every algorithm has a top side on the amount of money it can effectively process.
Consider an exit. How long does it take to leave? Same for entries.
I thought I would never say this, but GG, give me your 5K and I will return 10K at the end of the year - any thing I make above that with your money is mine. End of report.
nitro
nitro
Quote from rs7:
GG, I never thought I would make a post to this thread. But having read your self deprecating posts, and feeling some empathy for your present situation, I sort of feel compelled to at least offer something (of value or not can only be determined by you).
You talked about selling your paid- for car, and you also seemed to imply that you can't make any money trading. Yet you will not throw in the towel.
So it's time to use some logic.
If you don't think you can make money trading (especially having convinced yourself you are a "loser"), why even risk the $ if you are essentially assuring yourself of losing it? Keep the car. You can always sell it in an emergency. As of the last update, you still have 5k or so to trade with. You don't need to trade a bigger account if you can't profit from it.
Now unlike Marc to Market, who is some kind of savant trader from another planet, you need to consider how much money you could realistically expect to make if you turned it around and became a "winner". What is a reasonable ROI?
Forget these claims by anyone about 100% returns in a day or a week. Even a year. Possible? Anything is possible. But get real. You can buy lottery tickets too. Do you expect to win?
A very strong return IMO now would be 20% a year. So trading with 5K means you would starve if you were successful. Sell your car, and triple your income, and you are still starving.
So how can you succeed? Only way I can think of is through leverage. Now the more leverage you have, the more risk you will assume. So that could wipe you out quickly......exactly what you are trying hardest to avoid. You said you are determined to stay in the game. Which means taking very little risk, and that means expecting very little reward.
So far, I concede I have said nothing you don't already know, and nothing that will help you in any way. Just setting the background straight. Accurate so far?
So if all this is fairly correct, you need to increase either your leverage and/or your capital, and you need to somehow increase your risk tolerance without endangering your remaining funds.
You can do this by getting a job and not trading until you are comfortable. You don't want to do this, you say, so even though most of us do a lot of things we "don't want to do", we do them because we have to.
Or you can sit on your hands, try and figure out how to make money trading, and not take any real risk. Which seems to be what you are doing now if I read you right.
That could take forever....if not longer.
I sincerely believe that your only real option now if you wish to be a full time trader is to hook up with a firm. You MUST have several things that being a prop trader gives you.
Training, for one. While it is true that the real learning comes from trial and error (learning from the errors), you don't have the time. Or the money. A luxury you just can't afford.
Leverage. This is something you can and will get as a prop trader.
Risk management. You will never really learn on your own how to evaluate your risk. Not while you are in the "heat of battle". This is a part of being a prop trader that I myself do NOT really like. I don't want someone watching my account and telling me I need to close a position that is against me if I feel strongly enough about to believe that I am in the right place at the wrong time (for the moment), just missed my timing. But show a firm some success, and they cut you more and more slack.
You will hear many traders here say they want 100% payout and don't want to "pay" a firm to trade there. But if you are not making money now, what percent of zero is going to cut into your take home pay?
While I cannot make any specific suggestions on which firms to talk to and see about working with, it seems there are enough for you to interview yourself. Remember. while you may consider going to a firm like Bright just becoming a customer, there is a lot more to it. Going to a firm like Schonfeld, where I was for many years, you are an employee. (I do not think they are hiring on that basis anymore, but look into it....I am not sure about any of this). All I do know for certain is that you would be far better off working with others who can teach you, give you professional leverage, watch and help you manage risk, and put you into an environment of professionalism.
If you wanted to learn to fight as a soldier, you could read books and take karate and shooting classes,etc. But to become a professional soldier, the only real way would be to join the military. Not a pleasant prospect for a beginner. Basic training or boot camp ar no fun. But you do learn how to become a soldier. And then advanced training enables you to become a specialist in whatever field you wish. Do guys go to flight schools and pay to learn to fly? obviously they do. But where do the vast majority of airline pilots get their training? And they not only do not pay for the training, they get paid to learn.
While it is unlikely you will get paid to learn to trade at a prop firm with a pay check, you will get paid to learn in a sense by not risking as much of your own capital. Better to not make money at a prop firm than to lose money at home. Meanwhile, you will learn. Or at least you will have the opportunity to learn. It' s up to you.
I would rather get 20% of something than 100% of nothing. And right now, you seem to be getting 100% of less than nothing. It is costing you, and you don't seem to be learning from it.
Anything you do at this point would be an improvement. You cannot go on "til you die" as you said posting on ET and not having a "real job" and not making money trading. You need to make a compromise. To me it seems clear your dream is to learn how to trade successfully.
Take a chance. Put yourself out there and see what kinds of offers you can get. If you joined a firm like Bright or Worldco, or whoever, and you lost all your capital, I think you would have accomplished more than you would by doing it from home. The market will always be here. You could tap out and come back again when you have the opportunity. And opportunities do come along more than just once.
There are very few traders that make money from the get go. You have already paid a lot of dues. And in return, so far, you have gotten nothing for your efforts and your money. So why not try a different approach? You cannot get into any worse state than you are now. Calling yourself a loser....you have convinced yourself you are one, and a loser you will remain. Unless you get into a new game.
Just my $.02. And by the way, I have never traded on my own. I have "invested" on my own, and not done very well. I once did a very comprehensive series of posts about "accountability". You need to be accountable to yourself. If what you have been doing isn't and hasn't ever worked, you need to change something. And at this point the bigger the change, probably the better. Start calling firms tomorrow. There are a few that will let you start with your 5k, and maybe some that will let you start with nothing. Do some homework. It costs nothing and can pay big.
And ignore the success stories of guys like Marc to Market and MrMarket, and the rest. No one makes money all the time. Learn how to make just more than you lose. It's really that simple.
Go get 'em. I hope you make a post in the next few weeks (maximum) telling us about the guys in your trading room.
Keep the car. Give yourself a real chance. Call Don Bright. If he can't accommodate you, my guess is he can at least make some suggestions on who might be able to. Or what you should do.
Remember, all the advice you get here is worthless unless you use it. So why not solicit advice from someone you at least know something about. "Not an Alias" really does count for something. While I have never met Don or been in a Bright office, or even known anyone who has, at least I know he is who he says he is. Unlike the guys here that claim to make 15% a week.
Do you believe Marc to Market outperforms the very best hedge funds and the very best mutual funds and the very best investors of any (legal) kind? Reality counts.
Good luck Brother GG. Make a change. You have nothing to lose.
Peace,
rs7
Wow, would you do the same for me my good pal Nitro?
As long as I'm one of these "one or two people" my good pal!
lol..slip it to me for the last 8 weeks.
If you are a great trader, than you will do fine just starting with 25-50k. Assuming you have access to daytrading leverage of 5 or 10 to 1. If you are a great trader within a year your 25k will easily be 300k. A great trader can make 100% on buying power a year. So say you start with 25k, margined 10-1 for day trading, that is 250k in buying power. You can hope to make around 250k in a great year daytrading.
However, if you are not "great" you will almost certainly be wasting your time starting with just 25k.
Just throwing out some numbers, but i would guess that only the top 2% of traders could parlay 25k into a living.
Prop trading gives the undercapitalized "good" trader a shot at making it. The "good" trader would need many years to build up enough capital on his own to make a decent living if he was to start with just 25k. Prop firm buying power would cut this time down significanltly.
So in my opinion, a prop firm gives the mediocre to good trader a fighting chance that he might not have had on his own.
The bottom 75% of traders probably have no chance at all. The sad truth.
However, if you are not "great" you will almost certainly be wasting your time starting with just 25k.
Just throwing out some numbers, but i would guess that only the top 2% of traders could parlay 25k into a living.
Prop trading gives the undercapitalized "good" trader a shot at making it. The "good" trader would need many years to build up enough capital on his own to make a decent living if he was to start with just 25k. Prop firm buying power would cut this time down significanltly.
So in my opinion, a prop firm gives the mediocre to good trader a fighting chance that he might not have had on his own.
The bottom 75% of traders probably have no chance at all. The sad truth.