How many does daytraders make in nowadays markets?
- Thread starter abesiki
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What's wrong with Jack, Geezer? For starters, he's probably older than you, and for the end of it, probably also better. Just because you don't understand Jack's work (I.e. it doesn't fit into your model of the world) doesn't mean that it's bad. That's what is called a G/D problem (Generalization / Distortion). I personally don't trade Jack's method at all (I.e. I don't use any indicators), yet I have adapted some very smart tricks and partial approaches from him. I have accepted Jack as a respectable trading friend and I communicate with him from time to time. I have had private log exchanges with him and I have cross-verified one of his hand-written log/journals with the tape history, and established that he indeed placed the trades detailed, and quite possibly more volume than you, Geezer, will ever get to trade.
Oh you're of course fundamentally right. Most pro traders make money. As I detailed in my previous post here reg. fair commission structures and the setup for a pro futures trader for example. That the largest group of "real" traders are in equities doesn't mean that's the group of choice. It's your group of choice. If you're fine with it - Fine. I like it, as I said I scalp stocks from time to time and I have started with stocks in the first place and traded them for the better part of my time.[/b][/quote]
Nonono, wait a second, newbie. In the post of yours which I replied to, YOU are the guy who said "It's all hard, as it's supposed to be.", while I said: "Who says it's supposed to be hard?" So, are we starting to get a bit mixed up here now? It's OK I'll forgive you.
Nice way of putting it. There are many things harder to achieve than net profitable trading. Sure, a day at the office, once you get the hang of it. But most people never get to that stage and rather blow out. Maybe I stress a lot of caution, but I tell you what: I would, in this case, rather behave like a non-pro, mentioning that trading can be a hard thing to master, than behaving like a "real pro" would do, namely telling everybody how easy it is (so more people lemming in head-on and give me their money). Come on let's face it, Geezer. Both of us know that over 90% won't make it to "a day in the office".
I don't disagree with any of this. All those trading products are very nice to trade and each are good or not for their respective user. I trade some of them, and I think a few of them make a good combination. I have specialized on index futures, and so it is. For scalping, it is IMHO the best choice. If you do 4 trades per day, then stocks might be a better choice for you. And if you're a beginner, then stocks are certainly the better choice for you.
And sorry grandpa, but if you want to make me believe trading stocks is as "hard" as trading futures, you can pull your "several decades" leg over your head and go boating, I'll still laugh at you.
You have decades ahead of me, so you might be way more experienced, but I am young, driven and determined. I have much faster reflexes and faster thinking patterns than you do, as a matter of fact. I can trade in ways you probably can't even conceptualize anymore. I know, because my mentor is just over 40 and tells me this quite frequently. High performance trading is a lot like sports.
And talking of voluem, sorry to say, but if you want to see serious professional / institutional volume move, you will find that the futures are the medium where it happens, volume-wise and liquidity-wise. Even on the mini's, you can today often see $250M or more going over the counter within a minute. Try finding a stock where that happens (without causing a disaster)
That's what a "real pro" is supposed to say, to lure more folly people into a false sense of security.
How about : "Trading is easy..."
Everybody here a little announcement : Don't listen to this fool!
I tell you why: Even my mentor tells me that trading is a very hard thing to master, one of the hardest things you may ever attempt. My mentor (not Jack) has started in early twens, trading in the futures pits and traded there for years. Later on, got into active market-making, at times in several (inactive) stocks at a time. Later on did advanced fractal envelope trading in various issues, worked with investments banks and hedge funds as a top-performance trader for over 20 years. This trader trades bonds, futures, equities and options with virtuosity, and can return well in excess of 50% a month return on a consistent basis. I communicate with this trader regularly, I will have any question answered in an amazingly comprehensive and accurate way. This trader has learnt to always be way ahead of the crowd. This trader has taught me some of the most effective and advanced trading techniques, as well as forcing me very initially to give up all TA indicators. I talk about techniques you will never be able to conceptualize, including fractal envelope trading (SCT), which is basically what Jack Hershey does (that's why I know he's smarter than you, because you denegrate, therefore not understand him), but it's not only done by Jack, but by some of the most advance market makers and specialists out there - surprise, surprise.
Now, if even my mentor admits that trading isn't easy, then I suppose you're just a smoke-blower yourself, because I strongly doubt that you could outperform.
Maybe trading is "easy" for you, within the little frame you have, your little model of the world. Maybe you want to make 1% a day or sth. like that. Sure, then trading is indeed easy. But if you're striving for top-performance, mastery, then it's not so easy. There are "Do a day in the office" traders, and there are "Go on a world trip that is today" traders. Maybe you're one of those armchair farters who sit farting around all day, doing 3 trades per day with a glass of Semillon-Sauvignon in your hand. As for me, the process of trading is fun, and isn't difficult, but it's still hard work, day in, day out. I have to constantly improve my trading approaches, be very flexible to adapt and look at things. I work more than 10h a day, still. I work my brain. Don't tell me it's an easy job, or I'll laugh at you really hard.
LOL. Thanks for the tip. Get a grip, "grandpa". You're not the only one around.
Scientist.
Are you not being a little rough on him? Take ME down a notch , I can take it, but take it easy on the old guy....
Michael B.
Michael B.
Hey vanilla! How's things?
Regarding who's offering the rate on globex : I can't say this openly on this board (they're for pro's, not for retail traders), but if you do reasonable volume, I can certainly give you good contacts if you contact me privately / PM. The best rate you can officially get, is FFastTrade, with $1.38/RT (they even announced this in a recent ET chat). But there are certainly professional brokers willing to beat that considerably, I.e. profit margins are still high.
And by the way, if you do more volume, your rates can go down even more, below $1 - considerably! But again, you gotta do volume.
Regarding what it factors out to when you include the seat fees - I really don't have the foggiest notion, vanilla, because I don't know what volume you do. But you can just do the maths yourself. I.e. take your monthly #of contract-round-turns and multiply them by the difference between IB's retail brokerage and professional brokerage with a seat lease.
If you trade as little as 5 contracts, 30 times a day, then you could save $11,400 a month, minus the seat lease, which is ~$1,900, so you're ahead 9.5K a month, which ain't bad. On the other hand, if you only trade 3X a day, then it wouldn't pay off.
Regarding "what's the best RT off the exchange" - I don't quite know if I understand your question.
Warmest Regards,
Scientist.
I know. Sorry Michael. Some people's arrogance is just so annoying...
But anyway - It's all part of it. It's the contrast to these people that makes it more enjoyable seeing bright spirits floating around.
Like you or vanilla2
Best,
Scientist.
P.S: Do you agree that good trading is a relatively hard job no matter how 'good' you already are? Or am I all alone here?
By the way, advanced traders don't calculate their performance in #of points, but rather in % of daily range.
This is a good way.
The root of this statement above was actually caused by the Buy and Holders and the naysayers to the daytraders of old during the bubble. "Why trade all those in and out trades and spend the commission when you can just pick your direction ad go in an out one time) I can hear them now.
Actually, scalpers are the secondary market to the pit traders.......just bare with me....
They bid and offer back and forth there 1 tick trades.....if we can learn how to take the other side we can be just as effective....like a mirror.
Michael B.
This is a good way.
The root of this statement above was actually caused by the Buy and Holders and the naysayers to the daytraders of old during the bubble. "Why trade all those in and out trades and spend the commission when you can just pick your direction ad go in an out one time) I can hear them now.
Actually, scalpers are the secondary market to the pit traders.......just bare with me....
They bid and offer back and forth there 1 tick trades.....if we can learn how to take the other side we can be just as effective....like a mirror.
Michael B.
Quote from Scientist:
I know. Sorry Michael. Some people's arrogance is just so annoying...
But anyway - It's all part of it. It's the contrast to these people that makes it more enjoyable seeing bright spirits floating around.
Like you or vanilla2
Best,
Scientist.
P.S: Do you agree that good trading is a relatively hard job no matter how 'good' you already are? Or am I all alone here?
speaking of arrogance..
YOU'RE A WET BEHIND EARS 20 yr OLD THAT MAKES PRETTY EARRINGS, "SCIENTIST" .. WHAT THE HELL DO YOU KNOW ABOUT PRO TRADING !! :-|
ps didnt you just "refresh" your IB account (as you put it) due to sustained losses. huh?? yeah thats right.. you might know jewelry but dont pretend to know shite about PRO trading :-|
Oooh, Sorry LongShot / Fasterpussycat... Still sad that I didn't like your sexy picture of you with your yellow corvette?
Or is it that I shared the laughter about aphexcoil's little Gordon Gekko video? Come on, let's face it, FPC, you're a loser, and you know it. That's why you constantly defend Gordon Gekko and hang around with him. Equal to equal. Just about anybody here knows, so stop kidding yourself.
Refresh IB account? Sustained losses? FPC, I'm not sure if you're mistaking me for somebody else, but I have no idea what you're talking about.
You are being a notorious and unelegant liar as usual.
Want me to prove it? Well, I searched for all those words you just said, "as I put it", and I have not even found any reference to these words, anywhere, particularly not in my own posts. Anybody else here can search and directly verify that.
You now have the choice - You're either already hallucinating under your bodybuilding steroids, or just plain lying.
And (LOL) perhaps I'm not even dealing through my IB accounts anymore. But that kind of message perhaps wouldn't even come across to you.
Hilarious what a fool you've just made out of yourself...
Regards,
Scientist.
Is Long Shot, FPC? really?.......
What is the purpose of banning here?........if one can just start up a new handle or maintain 2?
Michael B.
What is the purpose of banning here?........if one can just start up a new handle or maintain 2?
Michael B.
Perhaps I am taking things far too seriously......I put a lot of thought in my posts....but I am thinking that ET really is just for entertainment.
Michael B.
Michael B.