Disproportionate force is a bad thing? Not if you intend on winning a fight. From two guys duking it out, to nations waging war, Disproportionate force is required for victory. Do I personally think leveling Gaza is the way to go? No, but it ain't my decision and frankly it isn't anyone's decision other than the Jews. They have decided, the consequences good or bad is on them. We, as a nation, have no business there, or Ukraine, or any fucking where else we're sticking our noses. Why? Because that has fucking consequences too and this nation of pussified people ain't ready to pay those consequences when, not if, they come home to roost.
How long until the leftist claim 'disproportionate force'?
- Thread starter wildchild
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Your post has tremendous appeal; it sounds so reasonable, so wise. Sadly, though it sounds reasonable, it's not wise. If only complicated things could be made so simple, so clear. You've nicely packaged together conflicts far away as conflicts we should avoid, as if to say we should see them through our American eyes as a one-size fits all pair of socks with a hole in the toe. Unfortunately, beside similarities in conflicts there are also differences that prevent them from being so neatly packaged. The differences are usually obvious and often go to the underlying reasons for the conflict. For one's own good, and for the good of vast swaths of people, these differences must be paid attention. It's not so simple as "They're over there, we're over here," because not only does our involvement have consequences, but so too has our non-involvement.
Would that the decision not to get involved in a conflict far from our doorstep be as clear and simply as you've made it out to be. Any simpleton politician would happily seize upon your highly appealing sentiment; yet I'm concerned the sentiment you so well expressed is not as innocuous as it might appear. It could be dangerous, especially in the case of Ukraine.
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Air raid sirens begin sounding in Jerusalem around 6:30 a.m. local time, warning citizens of the attack in progress and to immediately take cover. An estimated 2,200 rockets were fired toward southern and central Israel, including Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, by the Hamas militants, according to the Israel Defense Forces.
FYI rockets reaching Tel Aviv or Jerusalem are rare. Israel has up to date anti missile defenses protecting its major cities. No Embassies in Tel Aviv have been hit. You should get out more. Try to use more logical reasoning in the future, please.
My info comes from op (other people's) boots on the ground. Mohammed Tunnel Rats have shitty sugar rockets so it's no wonder they can't reach but the implication is they don't reach Jerusalem because they are not aimed there. Everybody in Tel Aviv has a bomb shelter and a warning system. Certain kinds of missiles can reach.
On second thought if they could improve their shitty sugar rockets I wouldn't be surprised if Mohammed's Time-Traveling Tunnel Rats started taking aim at Jerusalem. They are already gunning down Gazans trying to flee the north end.
Personally I don't think there is a two state solution. The Canaan area Arab socialists need a parent who can administer tough love. They are not really adults in the room. Gaza was, defacto, a two state solution. Oct 7 was, defacto, a breaking of cease fire. So long as Israeli culture puts theirs to shame by mere comparison of accomplishment, the socialists/communist/leftists and Nazi spawn will stir up class envy and it's subsequent violence.
There will be no peace till their concept of religious submission submits to a better authority in the region. Even the King of Jordan would be a better authority but we know how he feels about being their parent. There is a nasty history there between Jordanians and Muhamed's "West Bank" Time Travelers even though they are basically the same people, having had the same region post Brittain. Theres a reason the West Bank is no longer part of Jordan.
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We are all familiar with atrocities of the past. Is it time to think differently?; to force a change in Israeli policy, the same way integration was forced on the American South. Without a change in direction, Israel will continue down the same road. It is not the road that leads to Israeli security. Israel is making the same mistake over and over, and using Hamas atrocities to justify following this same road to hell. It would be terribly difficult to force a change in direction on Israel. The Reality is, however, that the U.S. holds most of the cards. And we could play them.
Are their countries that can serve as models for the U.S. going forward, because it seems our own past is a defective model for the future. Of course we can not solve all the problems of the world. But at a very minimum we should do our utmost not to make any of these problems worse and not to allow Israel to make them worse either. But it may be too late for that. We made a mistake when we jumped in too soon with unconditional support for Israel. We failed to recognize the danger posed by Netanyahu's criminal nature, though we had plenty of warning of this.
Israel seems to have no plans for how to peacefully accommodate Palestinians in a shared homeland. (A one nation solution is of course the ideal.) No plans even for how a satisfactory two-state solution could be implemented. Israel's plan, as sold to the Saudis by Jared Kushner, would have taken even more Palestinian land. And Israel has no plan for what to do with a million (assuming there are that many left alive) Palestinian refugees Israel will create with no where to go. To the outside observer, such as myself, it appears as though Israel's unspoken plan is to reduce the size of the problem by eliminating as many Palestinians as possible using the brutality of Hamas and the dim prospects of getting the Hostages back alive as their justification. This is nonsense in the World's eyes. Israel can not get by with using Hamas brutality, no matter how heinous, as a justification for their own. The world can not expect an Israel being driven to right-wing nationalism under Bibi Netanyahu, a highly flawed individual, to manage this crisis in any way other than through annihilation of Palestinians.
The U.S. has more control over Israeli policy then we've been exercising. The World is right to blame the U.S. as well as Israel for a policy without any hope of a satisfactory conclusion. There is zero possibility that Current Israeli Palestinian Policy will increase Israeli security other than temporarily. So what is the point of their policy! There is none. It's pointless! It seems Israel's intention is to annihilate every last Palestinian. And that is indeed what we see right in front of our own eyes. That policy is guarantied not to bring security to Israel.
We will hear much about Iran's and Russia's support of the Palestinian peoples. We must ignore this to the extent possible and not get caught up in a side issue over how to respond to Russia and Iran. We need to focus on our main problem. And that problem is Israel. Good to see Blinken working in that direction, but I'm concerned he may not be authorized to to play enough of the cards we hold. Israel, and Bibi Netanyahu in particular, is our problem.
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You bring up several reasonable points. Previously in recent ET threads i have outlined a two point plan for peace. The first step is the complete elimination of Hamas as a military and governing entity in Gaza. There can be no peace as long as a dedicated terrorist group dedicated to the complete destruction of Israel and murder of every Jew is constantly launching attacks directly on the Israeli border.
The second step are steps towards a comprehensive two state solution. The Netanyahu right-wing government does not support moving towards a two state solution. The reality seems to be that his government is focused on driving every Palestinian out of Gaza and the West Bank (settlers, etc.) Until the Netanyahu and his allies are voted out the office then there is no likelihood of progress towards peace and a two state solution.
The U.S. should apply pressure on Israel to negotiate in good faith towards a two state solution once Israel eliminates Hamas in Gaza in this war. The U.S. can reduce aid if Israel does not negotiate in a manner focused on arriving at a solution (or keeps building settlements in the West Bank, etc.)
We are thinking along the same lines, and that, I suppose, is some indication of the reasonableness of our arguments. I fully agree that Netanyahu's
leadership is making progress toward peace very difficult. He may succeed in eliminating most of Hamas's leadership, and we both agree that getting Hamas out of the picture is necessary. I'm really concerned, however, that getting rid of the current Palestinian leadership the way Netanyahu is doing it, by killing thousands of Palestinians and creating a million refugees in the process, will harden Palestinian resolve and lead to successor Palestinian leadership that is no better.
I was disappointed to learn that negotiation of the Abraham Accords did not include extracting from Israel a firm commitment, with teeth!, that there would be no further annexation of the West Bank. Israel wants Palestinian recognition of Israel's right to exist, but they have no chance to get it unless they stop annexing Palestinian lands and recognize the Palestinians right to exist other than as a vassal state of Israel. There seems to have been tacit agreement from the Trump administration that they would look the other way as Israel continued it's annexation program. It seems Israel is planning on taking (there is no other word) 30 % of the West Bank, but it is unclear to me whether that means a further 30% of what they have not yet taken or 30% in total, including what they have already taken. Of course there was no point in seeking Palestinian participation in the Accords until both the Palestinians and the Israelis agreed that the other side had a right to independent existence. Without Palestinian participation, however, the Accords rest on shifting sand. The Saudis have held firm. They want Israel's acceptance of a Two State solution. Bahrain, a party to the Accords, may have already withdrawn their diplomats from Israel because of the current conflict. The Algerians are up in arms about our recognition of Morocco's claim over Western Sahara as an inducement to get them to join in he Accords.
The Accords were a good idea, but not as skillfully negotiated as they might have been.. We are the ones that hold the cards with respect to Israel. If necessary, we can hold Israeli feet to the fire to force their cooperation in what will, in the end, be very good for Israel.. Until both Hamas and Netanyahu are gone, I don't hold out much hope for a lasting settlement. On a somewhat brighter note, Netanyahu and Trump may both be headed for the same place, Jail.
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It was expected coming from the author of "the art of the deal". Get ready to be wowed w/the one that likely prompted the attack though:
Thank you so much for posting that editorial. I hope every ETer will take the time to listen to it!
Some interesting perspectives from former Israeli Prime Minister Barak.
Former Israeli Prime Minister: Israel’s Endgame in Gaza Should be a Palestinian State
https://time.com/6332127/israel-palestine-war-ehud-barak/