How long before you were fully automated?

How long did it take you, since you started trading, to become fully automated?

  • 0 to <= 1 year

    Votes: 22 18.3%
  • >1 year to <= 2 years

    Votes: 16 13.3%
  • >2 years to <= 5 years

    Votes: 37 30.8%
  • >5 years to <= 10 years

    Votes: 25 20.8%
  • > 10 years

    Votes: 20 16.7%

  • Total voters
    120
Quote from travis:
"Automated trading" for us retail traders means automating a strategy. "Automated trading" for fund managers and investment banks means automating the execution (of their big orders).
No, this is a bit too simplistic view. Banks runs fully automated market making strategies just to mention one example. It can also be difficult to completely distinguish between a program for efficient execution and a program for generation of profit ("strategy trading"). Its a complex world.

Regarding latency, take for example a look at this thread for a discussion on this (if you have not done it all ready):

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=161595&perpage=6&pagenumber=1

Latency becomes an increasing issue when increasing the frequency of your trading and for some business models it is essential. But don't make the mistake to think that people who cares about latency are in any way stupid:).

Who are "they" with the low returns that you refer to?
 
Quote from monty21:

What language are you guys using to build your systems? I assume C++?

C#. But I am hesitant to walk into another flame war on which programming language is best:)

nuclearphynance (the forum) has some discussion on why C# might be a good choice.
 
Quote from monty21:

What language are you guys using to build your systems? I assume C++?

Does anyone just use Excel and VBA?

Can you guys mention what language you think is the best for programming an automated system?

I used a combination, C++ for the server, C# for the GUI.
The server was originally on Windows, now on Linux.
 
Quote from jack hershey:

....

Some of the things you mention do not make much sense to me.

I doubt that these "expert traders" or "whales" are not going be using retail platforms or technology for their trades, especially the ones they offer in Traders Expos. Your industry knowledge seems to be extremely out-dated... Seriously, why do you think people are discussing about automating their stuff on their own? Because retail environment sucks. I think people catch up in industry meetings / events hosted by exchanges or the appropriate press... and occasional private cocktail parties.

Seriously, I've never heard of old school traders in Chicago or NYC going to Traders Expo as a catch up event. And whenever you go out drinking on Friday/Sat. nights, you see the same people over and over again. Maybe it's a Chicago or NYC thing, they crammed up all the industry people in a small box...

Also, being skeptical is a very good thing. They should be skeptical about me. They should be skeptical about you. Of course, skeptism in this stage is "inductive" at best. There are no data set and information provided to conduct a deductive conclusion about what you say, (or anyone says). So you can't just shun out people and say, "They're struggling and never get it", if you are critisizing everyone for being inductive. As I mentioned, you in fact, can be the biggest contraversy to your own claims.

Anyways... I hope you comment on my previous posts. I hope you understand that this discussion will only go in circles if you don't...
 
Quote from monty21:

What language are you guys using to build your systems? I assume C++?

Does anyone just use Excel and VBA?

Can you guys mention what language you think is the best for programming an automated system?

80% C#. 20% C++. F# growing.

My programming relies on Visual Studios.
I can't program without it.
 
Quote from travis:

This was BlackMage's answer to a previous post in which I mixed up the two types of automation. I want to state again what I understood the difference to be, because I've been reading about the "algo trading" (I had already printed a bunch of articles on it, and I ended up reading them).

"Automated trading" for us retail traders means automating a strategy. "Automated trading" for fund managers and investment banks means automating the execution (of their big orders).

It's the same as BlackMage stated, but I went over it for a few days and I finally understood it.

What now strikes me is that these folks are focusing on milliseconds and speed and everything like that, spending millions on the related technology, to have perfectly efficient execution, without influencing prices and making them go up by buying, or even before they buy (because people expecting their order, will anticipate them), but are they focusing at all on what we focus entirely on, that is the strategy itself? By their returns, it seems to me that the guy deciding what to buy could very well be an incompetent (who ignores the existence of back-testing a strategy, or even the concept of strategy). Please explain this or explain the low returns they have.

I think most of the people lose focus and only think about "sending" orders. But you have to understand the flip-side of having a fast network. It's to get your fills quickly / efficiently. I think everyone's gone through the frustration of delayed fills from your broker.

A lot (not all) models and systems start managing trades after the acks are received from the brokers. Receiving acks are equally important during fast markets, and when you run a High Frick model, any bulk order can tip the model over.
 
Quote from TSGannGalt:

Some of the things you mention do not make much sense to me.

I doubt that these "expert traders" or "whales" are not going be using retail platforms or technology for their trades, especially the ones they offer in Traders Expos. Your industry knowledge seems to be extremely out-dated... Seriously, why do you think people are discussing about automating their stuff on their own? Because retail environment sucks.

We both agree that after a certain point the retail discussion is over. My intention was to point out that experts and whales are NOT using what the Expo has in the Exhibit Hall nor in most presentations. That is why I tried unsuccessfully to state that guys like "Traders you have never heard of" who appear on panels always have their programmers, who do not use retail offerings, on hand too, There is an informal exchange going on among these types. In your first comment sen
tence I read it as if you did not put the NOT in the sentence.


Also, being skeptical is a very good thing. They should be skeptical about me. They should be skeptical about you. Of course, skeptism in this stage is "inductive" at best. There are no data set and information provided to conduct a deductive conclusion about what you say, (or anyone says). So you can't just shun out people and say, "They're struggling and never get it", if you are critisizing everyone for being inductive. As I mentioned, you in fact, can be the biggest contraversy to your own claims.

I did follow your prior scepticism. And I know what I suggested is quite harsh. I probably should comment on where and how induction must drop out of the picture. Others do continue to speak about this. In my case I religiously follow their insights and years of work to get to the common ground we have.

Models and trading ATS's have some tough requirements for them to work. I am thoroughly focussed on extracting the offer of the market. I believe that is it possible to continually deduce what the market is offering. One major aspect is to only dwell on the trading fractal at all times and only use the market variables dictated by the market. Further, using these valid hypotheses, only a proper parametric measure may be used.

You do differently than I. Were I you, I would be sceptical of what is typed here by me. The primary reason is that I am not doing what you do and you do not do what I do. I must tell you that I have been here and there and I do know how a lot of experts trade and how their programmers program. I am able to improve their performance usually. Usually there is no animosity in the space; I believe the reason has to do with money. everyone has it and they know they will never deal with "empty". There is no empty once a person is an expert trader.


Anyways... I hope you comment on my previous posts. I hope you understand that this discussion will only go in circles if you don't...

I will comment. At some point in this forum a thread I am participating in will start up again. you will enjoy seeing how it turns out on several levels.
 
Quote from jack hershey:


Being harsh is fine. And no hard feelings.

I'm only doing what any of my friends would do... Being critical and challenging each other's opinion.

Debating and discussing is a very healthy thing for your brain.

:D :D :D

*Most of my trader friends are good hearted sadist.
 
Quote from monty21:

What language are you guys using to build your systems? I assume C++?

From the ground up using Java. Not that I think it is the best language, just the one I know the best.

2002-03: Learned as much as I could about technical analysis, the different markets and tradable products. Did some manual trading, which was unsuccesful.

2005: I started coding up my system and back testing various trading ideas. Went live with my first system during the fall of 2005 with a 3K account at IB. While my first system was profitable and in theory should have made me some decent returns, I was not able to trade it full time due to various bugs and work related issues. Oddly enough the periods that the system was running were losing periods and I managed to miss the best winning periods.

2006-07: Continued to work on the system to smash any bugs that came up and improve the performance. System gets pretty stable and starts cranking out some real returns.

2008: System doing very well. Started working on my 2nd system and left my day at the end of July. Rolled out new system in Oct just in time to experience a nasty draw down period, but fortunately I stuck it out and the new system started performing far better than anticipated.

2009: System still performing very well and I continue to back test various trading ideas and making improvements to the system (mostly stability / scalabilty improvements).

I probably have put in 2K plus hours coding and back testing over the last 4 years, but it was totally worth it.
 
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