It's not fair that some of us are writing pages and pages about what they think and others come and dismiss them with just two lines, calling them sometimes "pathetic", other times "loser" (it happened to me), other times "worthless". Why don't you write a few pages yourself, on how things could be done better? Or, if you don't have the time, at least ignore my lengthy efforts, and talk about something else.
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How long before you were fully automated?
- Thread starter travis
- Start date
Quote from travis:
It's not fair that some of us are writing pages and pages about what they think and others come and dismiss them with just two lines, calling them sometimes "pathetic", other times "loser" (it happened to me), other times "worthless". Why don't you write a few pages yourself, on how things could be done better? Or, if you don't have the time, at least ignore my lengthy efforts, and talk about something else.
Well...
I don't blame others to have a prejudice on jack... It's actually my first time interacting with him. And I start seeing that his posts are rather ironic from what he claims. First, his posts are based on a theoretical basis. He takes the hypothesis and expands them to another hypothesis. In another words, he emphasizes on deduction but if you start comprehending what he mentions, he is actually using a lot of strong induction in his posts.
An example of his strong induction would be how he explains about how to eliminate Kelly. Ernie's quote simply mentions about scalability of the models within real world conditions, like liquidity and affecting the markets via size. Jack starts off with mentioning about eliminating probability to avoid Kelly. But in a real world situation, the problem hasn't been fixed. You're either using static MM or Kelly MM, there's nothing deductive about that.
Finally, he seems to be overcomplicating what is very simple and hides the core issues regarding trading models and how to deal with them as "using deductive process". The 3 models in which he mentions need to be extremely robust that it constantly profits. The usage and his "advice" are viable only if you have an "extreme robust deductive model" as he relates to. If not, there would be no way of eliminating statistics or probability, regardless of using Kelly or not.
All in all, after refreshing myself with some Math books. I came to realize that jack is not deductive after all. Also, I have very high doubts that he automates. Well... no hard feeling to Jack.... He can always rebuttal and I am always reading/listening.
- T
PS. All my skeptism started with this statement, "Remember the carrier rule is simple and it says: "stay on the right side of the market" Stay on the right side of the market is defined by two variables V>>>P, where the measured parameter is the sign of the velocity of V giving P by the sign of the velocity and by two mutually exclusive non probalistic hypothesis."
There are many ways of doing things.
My views are not the only way to approach the opportunity.
I apologize to you all and especially those who feel I have been knocking their efforts.
My view of myself is that, as unusual as it sounds, I have spent years and years just perking along with the technology or knowledge available at the time and then working around anything that was not available or convenient.
The other matter is that, simply stated, I have been at the right place at the right time to be able to participate in some very great projects that improved things. I've never had financial constraints after getting out of grad school.
I really admire all the work that is represented in this thread. It is impossible for me to type up what I am trying to say based upon my experience.
I worked in the dark ages on cutting edge computers during their birth struggles. GE Differential Analyzer, Reeves Analog, Bell labs military analog applications, then IBM 700 series and all that preceded that civilian and military. None of these could make money. So did it manually and in a very detailed way con currently with becoming, at IBM's expense, a theoretical physicist.
Trading to make money is not complex. But it is necessary to be in synch with how the market works. Over about 53 years, I got to know how markets work and trading this, working of the markets, as I view it, is quite simple and methodical.
I have visited many operations and I have never seen one that is really set up and humming. I have been to many Trader's Expos and got to go through the full spectrum of what is showing at these shows. I took notes (four yellow pads an expo) and I asked questions. I found that I could not wear a badge and nowadays my name is spelled wrong as well.
Two expo results: there are whales and expert traders there. They are there to "find" people. Whales are 9 and 10 digit people. Expert traders will not work for GS (some did) AND they all have EXPERT PROGRAMMERS who are there with them.
One programmer example. He controls the speech of his boss and expert trader like a launcher on an aircraft carrier. both can understand a question and its reason for beingasked in a NY minute and that addition to the projected screen is up there in a NY minute and its implication is clear as a bell.
There is ALWAYS a huddle after the "must shake the speaker's hand" has been completed. What is the huddle about? Scheduling time together as a home and home.
I am sorry that I am failing to be able to communicate here. I feel that there is a gulf between very successful people and very capable people who are not being successful.
At expos the vendors ae not capable as a rule (This is a negative comment I have to make). But there are experts at the Expo who may speak or may just be catching up with buddies of the same ilk. thw whales that are there are seeking out experts who will "deal" with them. It is ALL based on programming.
ALL of the programmers of these experts are there. In my observation, ALL of these programmers know how to trade.
In consideration of this set of people they have one commonality that is significant and one that is humorous: wealth and custom 12 cylinder cars (red or white).
The Vegas Expo is the BEST. This is because it is the hometown of a lot of whales and expert (programmed) traders.
Capable people who are not making it, have to face or deal with why the gap exists between them and the experts who have and continue to bemaking it. Is an expert ever going to try to lay off mid 8 digits on you? He has a problem; doesn't care how you do it but he KNOWS you do it. This happens in huddles among guys who keep in touch and see each other once in a while.
Who is going to be at an expo these days? One group is going to be the regular experts who bring their programmers. Another group is going to be whales who NEED these guys to let them in on a "deal".
Obviously, everyone has become skeptical of me because I stated a simple programming "carrier" functionality as : "Staying on the right side of the market".....implying to always be able to take 100% of the market's offer. That is the way it goes......
Programming coding is most functional when what goes to the execution platform is something, that on a given fractal, extracts the market's offer. what you see here DOES NOT USE PRICE IN ANY WAY TO achieve this basic level of operation. The code is less than three standard pages long. It is derved, in my opinion, deductively and uses 1950's type stuff. If you can see this chart (made on Earth Day)and its worth, then you are capable and you can bridge across from being capable to being expert in taking the market's offer. This is a representation of "making money" and making money most of the time and to the extent offered.
I am a nobody in terms of the standards of the people here. But it may be worth considering the content of what I suggest simply because it will begin a capable person's path across the gap or gulf between being capable and being expert at what you do.
My views are not the only way to approach the opportunity.
I apologize to you all and especially those who feel I have been knocking their efforts.
My view of myself is that, as unusual as it sounds, I have spent years and years just perking along with the technology or knowledge available at the time and then working around anything that was not available or convenient.
The other matter is that, simply stated, I have been at the right place at the right time to be able to participate in some very great projects that improved things. I've never had financial constraints after getting out of grad school.
I really admire all the work that is represented in this thread. It is impossible for me to type up what I am trying to say based upon my experience.
I worked in the dark ages on cutting edge computers during their birth struggles. GE Differential Analyzer, Reeves Analog, Bell labs military analog applications, then IBM 700 series and all that preceded that civilian and military. None of these could make money. So did it manually and in a very detailed way con currently with becoming, at IBM's expense, a theoretical physicist.
Trading to make money is not complex. But it is necessary to be in synch with how the market works. Over about 53 years, I got to know how markets work and trading this, working of the markets, as I view it, is quite simple and methodical.
I have visited many operations and I have never seen one that is really set up and humming. I have been to many Trader's Expos and got to go through the full spectrum of what is showing at these shows. I took notes (four yellow pads an expo) and I asked questions. I found that I could not wear a badge and nowadays my name is spelled wrong as well.
Two expo results: there are whales and expert traders there. They are there to "find" people. Whales are 9 and 10 digit people. Expert traders will not work for GS (some did) AND they all have EXPERT PROGRAMMERS who are there with them.
One programmer example. He controls the speech of his boss and expert trader like a launcher on an aircraft carrier. both can understand a question and its reason for beingasked in a NY minute and that addition to the projected screen is up there in a NY minute and its implication is clear as a bell.
There is ALWAYS a huddle after the "must shake the speaker's hand" has been completed. What is the huddle about? Scheduling time together as a home and home.
I am sorry that I am failing to be able to communicate here. I feel that there is a gulf between very successful people and very capable people who are not being successful.
At expos the vendors ae not capable as a rule (This is a negative comment I have to make). But there are experts at the Expo who may speak or may just be catching up with buddies of the same ilk. thw whales that are there are seeking out experts who will "deal" with them. It is ALL based on programming.
ALL of the programmers of these experts are there. In my observation, ALL of these programmers know how to trade.
In consideration of this set of people they have one commonality that is significant and one that is humorous: wealth and custom 12 cylinder cars (red or white).
The Vegas Expo is the BEST. This is because it is the hometown of a lot of whales and expert (programmed) traders.
Capable people who are not making it, have to face or deal with why the gap exists between them and the experts who have and continue to bemaking it. Is an expert ever going to try to lay off mid 8 digits on you? He has a problem; doesn't care how you do it but he KNOWS you do it. This happens in huddles among guys who keep in touch and see each other once in a while.
Who is going to be at an expo these days? One group is going to be the regular experts who bring their programmers. Another group is going to be whales who NEED these guys to let them in on a "deal".
Obviously, everyone has become skeptical of me because I stated a simple programming "carrier" functionality as : "Staying on the right side of the market".....implying to always be able to take 100% of the market's offer. That is the way it goes......
Programming coding is most functional when what goes to the execution platform is something, that on a given fractal, extracts the market's offer. what you see here DOES NOT USE PRICE IN ANY WAY TO achieve this basic level of operation. The code is less than three standard pages long. It is derved, in my opinion, deductively and uses 1950's type stuff. If you can see this chart (made on Earth Day)and its worth, then you are capable and you can bridge across from being capable to being expert in taking the market's offer. This is a representation of "making money" and making money most of the time and to the extent offered.
I am a nobody in terms of the standards of the people here. But it may be worth considering the content of what I suggest simply because it will begin a capable person's path across the gap or gulf between being capable and being expert at what you do.
Attachments
Quote from andrewbee:
Maybe. It was his throwaway comment at the end of one post that seemed to imply that mere mortals like the rest of us couldn't keep up with his posts, because of his superior intellect, that got to me a bit.
I really got to cut the humor....LOL....
sorry travis,; what can I say....
I believe you are a bee...totally....
Quote from BlackMage:
"Algorithmic trading" and "automated trading" is often mixed up. "Algorithmic trading" often refers to the order being executed by some algorithm while the decision process might be human. "Automated trading" often refers to the situation where the decision process is also automated. But it is a mess, and it can be difficult to deduce what exactly the two terms covers when you read about them in some context.
So when it is stated that X% of some exchange order flow is "automated" a large part of that is probably due to algorithmic order execution (and not necessarily the type of automation that you try to do).
This was BlackMage's answer to a previous post in which I mixed up the two types of automation. I want to state again what I understood the difference to be, because I've been reading about the "algo trading" (I had already printed a bunch of articles on it, and I ended up reading them).
"Automated trading" for us retail traders means automating a strategy. "Automated trading" for fund managers and investment banks means automating the execution (of their big orders).
It's the same as BlackMage stated, but I went over it for a few days and I finally understood it.
What now strikes me is that these folks are focusing on milliseconds and speed and everything like that, spending millions on the related technology, to have perfectly efficient execution, without influencing prices and making them go up by buying, or even before they buy (because people expecting their order, will anticipate them), but are they focusing at all on what we focus entirely on, that is the strategy itself? By their returns, it seems to me that the guy deciding what to buy could very well be an incompetent (who ignores the existence of back-testing a strategy, or even the concept of strategy). Please explain this or explain the low returns they have.