How little capital could you make a living off?? ;)

[Mr J]

Quote from spanish89:

5k gbp.

And im not 'attempting' to do it, i did it for 11months, all documented daily in my journal.

5k GBP is enough, 1k is not. As long as you're doing it with ~1k, you're only attempting to do it. I'm going to guess you need to make at least that a month to pay for your expenses. I'm guessing you have to be reasonably aggressive with that amount of capital, so all it takes is a little variance to bring that down to an amount where you can no longer pay the bills.

 

[spanish89]

Quote from Mr J:

5k GBP is enough, 1k is not. As long as you're doing it with ~1k, you're only attempting to do it. I'm going to guess you need to make at least that a month to pay for your expenses. I'm guessing you have to be reasonably aggressive with that amount of capital, so all it takes is a little variance to bring that down to an amount where you can no longer pay the bills.

It is extremely stressful and difficult to do it,
but i proved before it was do-able when i took £759 to 30k profit in 5months.


And i am currently doing it again, from the starting capital of £605 3weeks ago ive made over 120% profit now.

Even though i missed the 3biggest and best days that i was waiting for.
*The 1st dow 250rally day, id bought the day before and mde profit but didnt hold overnight.
*2nd dow 360points dow rally day, same as other, id bought the day before, made money, didnt hold overnight.
*And 3rd one the opec oil play that id been waiting n planning for 2weeks for, i made the trade, set the target, but cashed in at the top of the 1st spike of 90ticks,
which was followed 15seconds later by a crash of 100ticks in under 30secs.
Just to then move sideways for the next 4hours, then shootup 400ticks in a vertical line and hit the target.

So instead of making the 80% profit today that i would have mae if id taken the gamble, i only made 11%.





While it is unfortunate that i missed those 3 easy opportunites that id planned for, that would have netted me over £2,000 profit (1,000points) if id left target orders on instead of being cautious and cashing in sooner..,
it does show the potential of how much you can make from so little when you need to.



There is 1 key phrase that you do have to always remember and focus on when trading though if you want to be able to consistently keep making these sorta % returns daily/weekly-

Entry is Everything



You have extreme patience, and focus a huge amount of effort in refusing to pull the entry trigger for every single trade until its at a price that would be ridiculously hard for the market to hold offside against you if you entered there,
And you will consistently only make money.





P.S
Its not a case of ''attempting'' to do anything mate.
This isnt just some sorta of test or trial, its pure raw survival.

If you get just 1 trade wrong and lose all the money/lose some money/make some money but fail to make the 80% profit per each month,
its not a case of saying ''oh well, thats abit annoying, would rea'ly have liked this to workout''.

It would simply be a case of the next time you feel hungry, you look in your wallet and theres no money there, check you bank account and thats empty,
and so until/unless you manage to find another source of income, and actually recieve the payment from that source into your bank account for you to withdraw..,
you simply physically have absolutely no other way of getting access to food until then.



So theres no attempting and failing mate.

You either manage it and keep being able to feed yourself and survive,
or dont manage it and endup starving with no money or food.

 

[Cheese]

Lets nail the answer to this endlessly repeated concern at ET for amateurs entering trading.

Yes, you can begin trading with very low capital (margin for 1 lot) and become successful PROVIDED you play intraday and have devised or adopted an accurate and reliable methodology to exploit the market, preferably a volatile liquid market (eg ES,YM,CL) where you buy the upmoves and sell the downmoves sequentially. HOWEVER it is unlikely any amateur combines very low capital with sufficient savvy and the long preparation needed beforehand to commence as a successful player.

The greater the amount of capital, the greater the latitude for a new amateur to make greater losses.

The obvious conclusion (not followed by new ETers) is to make sure you have, first and foremost, a reliable and accurate methodology to apply. How obvious is this? Try this analogy; its about as obvious as having 4 round wheels on a car. Imagine instead a car on blocks with no wheels fitted but a full fuel tank. You can get in and spin the axles until you run out of fuel. Meanwhile you are going nowhere.

 

[Cheese]

Quote from volente_00:

I disagree, there is a huge psychological difference between trading 2k and 200k. I have done both and the emotions are no where near the same when you trade with scared money even when trading the same % of each account risk on each account. This difference alone accounts for the major reason those with a small account never make it.

The reverse is true in respect of your claim. I have done both too in a professional capacity. There is more pressure where you are responsible for a large trading agenda for one account.

The point to understand is the high degree of knowledge and skill that needs to be applied. This is absent for most or all ET traders. Hence small or larger capital of such amateurs can be wholly or substantially wiped out and often is.

 

[Mr J]

but i proved before it was do-able when i took £759 to 30k profit in 5months.

A lot of people have done that and not been successful over the longterm. Where's the other 29k? You couldn't have spent that much.

And i am currently doing it again, from the starting capital of £605 3weeks ago ive made over 120% profit now.

You hope to do it again. You're obviously trading at very aggressive levels, and like I said before it won't take much for it to come undone. You aren't given yourself great chance for success until you're decently capitalised and trading at sensible levels.

There seems to be a lot of second guessing and "what ifs" in your post. There are trade offs to any decision, so if you keep it tight and only take a slice of the potential profits on offer, then that's what you have to accept. If you had let it ride longer, perhaps you get stopped out immediately, or perhaps you catch a nice run. It's pretty irrelevant really, and not what you should be focusing on. A trader will never capture everything on offer.

Quote from Cheese:

The reverse is true in respect of your claim. I have done both too in a professional capacity. There is more pressure where you are responsible for a large trading agenda for one account.

I think this is personal. With a smaller amount, I'll put in more effort to achieve results to get to a comfortable level. With a greater amount of capital, I won't feel that need and therefore won't put in the same amount of effort.

 

[spanish89]

Quote from Mr J:

A lot of people have done that and not been successful over the longterm. Where's the other 29k? You couldn't have spent that much.

You hope to do it again. You're obviously trading at very aggressive levels, and like I said before it won't take much for it to come undone. You aren't given yourself great chance for success until you're decently capitalised and trading at sensible levels.

Aloha mate..

In relation to your questions/statments 1stly please can you tell me the username&journal or thread of a few of these other traders who have also taken a few hundred quid capital, and generated 30k+ within 6months, without being able to compound capital??

(Im not being sarcastic, i genuinely would like to be able to contact and talk to them about what they did, how exactly they did it, and what were the reasons that they started losing lots of it in the end.
So i could then see what specific technical trading mistakes they were making, so i can make sure to avoid those if i ever start doing them too).


And out of the 30k i spent about 22k,
had kept 2k in bank as emergceny savings,
lost just over £5k in the 3weeks between jan n feb when market movement changed,
and had £605 left behind.




And in relation to your 2nd statement, if you look at my journal for the last 3weeks and see the trades that ive actually made i very much doubt you would call them 'aggressive'.

I used to trade very aggressively when the market was very volatile between october t december, and was extremely succesful at it.

But now that the market movement has become so slow and mellow i changed my trading style to an extremely patience and mellow style now.


Before i would trade at £9-£12 per tick, and all you had to was get your trade in the market at a 'decent' entry price before the market jolted without you onboard.

Now ive cut down to just £1 per tick, with the occassional 2nd add for technical averaging reasons.
And am waiting many many hours, more often now days n days, just to get the perfect entry price, on a trade that i will only then hold for a few minutes and cash-in after just 90ticks profit.

And then its back to staring at the screen for 14/16hours per day, waiting n waiting for the next perfect opportunity to take the next 90ticks.


So its not ''aggressive'' at all mate.


Its simply extreme patience and focus, instead of sloppiness and impatience.

 

[spanish89]

Quote from Mr J:

You aren't given yourself great chance for success until you're decently capitalised and trading at sensible levels.

And in regards to this,
while currently i do 'need' to keep trading and earning over 80% profit per month to survive,
i dont want to be a trader for my fulltime career.


While i do enjoy making lots of money for just click a button at easy and obvious times,
i would only actually start to like trading again if i didnt need to rely on this for an income and if i have the normal career that i want to have, with the social aspects that it brings.


Currently i actually hate n despise all the various pyschological aspects of trading, and dont liek ot enjoy it at all.

The only time that ive ever actually felt happiness during trading is after ive cashed out of a trade for a nice amount of money,
and so have that cash locked in safely for me.
Then i feel happy and smiley.

But for all the many many hours that arent that time, im seriously hating all of them :/



I dont trade cos i enjoy it at all or want it as a career anymore,
the only reason i now currently trade is because im extremely good at it and so need the money that i can make from it.

(I cant wait for the day that i can finally never ever 'need' to make another trade again ever though)

 

[CFerret]

Assuming I am clear of any debt (and I really am), $1000 a month would be enough to sustain a living.

Not a decent living of course, but possible to live on...

 

[nukethewhales31]

The Dead Horse

How much money do I need to make a living trading?

Ok. it's its a dead horse so ill just beat it a little.

well you could look at one of the other 5000 posts about this or we can make this a 5001 post about it so how much money do you need to survive? take what you need to survive multiply it by 3 thats the amount you need to make a month...

Haha yeah this things dead here let me beat it anyways.....

why do i need to make 3x more than i need? .... well you could live from pay check to pay check working for walmart or you can trade furiously with 1000$ to make 900$ every month and exchange walmart for harder smarter work but behind a computer screen and still never increase your net worth or trading capital... if you jsut gonna be withdrawing your capital.... by making 3 times what you need you can account for losses , you can account for withdraw and you can build your account size increasing your income...

why am i doing this? its my job its just a dead horse but hell someone has to beat it......

by not needing to pay a bill now much more money can be saved till the end of the money increasing tradable capital and increasing your income thus compounding faster in your account... so you will make more money everyday you trade then the day before assuming consistent which its not. Also why aim to double your money every month when you can increase it gradually with more control and less worry .... since these will result in a soon to be inevitable downfall... one bad money could wipe out your capital leave you needing to pay bills and without a job....

Its a dead horse.... and i sir... have the obligation to beat it.

as a trader really i wouldnt aim for more than 10% to be your goal for the month that means if you need 1k a month you should have 10k capital now you need 1k and you take the advice of 3x now you need 3k a month at 10% so your account should be 30k capital...

well whatever it is its dead but i cant really tell if its a horse......

so i cant start with 30k now what... well maybe you should keep your job for a while .... and trade at the same time... cut back on bills like a real finance person would do aka
coupons for groceries...
cut back on energy
switch from cell plan to pay as you go or get a landline and thats it...
etc...
reduce your expenditures by 20% or more
if you make 2k now a month and can reduce your output by 20% and you need 1k now then you can use 800 save 1200 and put it into an account...

trade at the same time your saving but use volatile dollar cost adjusting and account size variations to control your risk while trading low amounts 10% a month youll know your doing good when your making more money and every month youll be adding 1200 ... if you can trade you will quickly be at 30k capital... keep your job for a while and trade till you can prove your income... at least a year.

dude is that a horse? ... i dunno i was just hired to beat it.....

the larger your account the less worry to trade the more you have to fall back on.. the less youll feel the need to make that 10% a month as you have a job still you can pick your trades better... make good decisions and develop good trading attitude and experience.... prove yourself this for a year and you shouldnt be asking anyone questions.

lol look at that dead horse

notice the poll 50% say over 30k

 

[Mr J]

In relation to your questions/statments 1stly please can you tell me the username&journal or thread of a few of these other traders who have also taken a few hundred quid capital, and generated 30k+ within 6months, without being able to compound capital??

I can't point to specific examples, but you're far from the first. Variance alone tells me this, and then there are the many stories. It's also not exclusive to trading, I've seen many poker players (specific examples) that have run up a large account and not able to sustain it.

So i could then see what specific technical trading mistakes they were making

It doesn't matter whether it's trading or poker, or even business in general, the reasons are the same. Usually they have bet/traded far too aggressively and confuse positive variance for skill. I don't know whether or not you're a profitable trader, but to turn 1k into 30k in less than a year either means massive turnover, or that you have been aggressive and lucky.

And out of the 30k i spent about 22k,

Which doesn't seem to have been very sensible. Even if you no longer want to trade for a career, it sounds like you at least want it to provide a little income over the shorterm, so you really should have left yourself with more than that.

And in relation to your 2nd statement, if you look at my journal for the last 3weeks and see the trades that ive actually made i very much doubt you would call them 'aggressive'

I haven't seen your journal (although I am aware of it). Perhaps you're not being aggressive now, but you certainly were before if you turned 1k into 30k. If you're not being aggressive now, you won't succeed either as you must be overly aggressive to attempt to make a living off of 1k, and that's the catch. Your chances of succeeding are low whether you're aggressive or not, because of the small amount of capital.

And then its back to staring at the screen for 14/16hours per day

Oh, you do that (no wonder you hate trading ). Maybe your turnover is good and you're not as aggressive as I expected, but you're still either aggressive, fortunate, or both, to have turned 1k into 30k. Don't expect to do it again. You might, but you most likely will not.

So its not ''aggressive'' at all mate.

Definition of aggression changes with experience.