How do you get over the fear of increasing position size?

My favorite trading saying from Market Wizards--"Stop thinking that you know something about the market". I use this thought just about every day, because my mind wants to tell me that it knows what is going to happen. It's all just a tendency that can vanish quickly. I see a lot of assumptions being made. If you knew that the market we're going to behave a certain way, then you could have your foot to the floor all the time. But that situation never ever exists.

Examine your beliefs about things first. The rest will take care of itself.
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CswiM;
That sounds like a paraphrase of PTJ, one of the most funny, most true i ever read .He told lack Schwager, the most common misconception people have is about Wall Street is= they ''know some thing'' -----Paul Tudor Jones LOL-LOL:D:cool: As far a high probability trades/investments ; older Turtles made most of those millions on low probability trades/BIG Trends,+ big leverage.

Since they {turtles} made so many millions that way [BIG leverage+ big TRENDS];
like to study cash markets[ zero leverage]+ BIG TRENDS:caution::caution::cool::cool:
 
I hope I won't offend you by mentioning that for me, the exact opposite is true: I'd far rather make a level-ish average of $100 over each of 100 small trades than do one big trade (a "90%-probability trade") that nets $10k.

I think I have three main reasons for feeling this way (they might turn out to overlap to some extent: that has a habit of happening whenever I say "I have three main reasons"!) ...

First, I'm not convinced that I really believe in "90%-probability trades" - not within my own normal trading parameters, anyway: I recognise, of course, that there can easily be trades with a 90% win-rate, but in my own mind (and I'm saying this after a lot of experience) these tend to be something of an artificial construct created primarily to illustrate that such a thing is possible, rather than regularly repeatable "real world trades" which constitute part of a method with a genuine, proven, positive expectancy.

Secondly, I'm a great believer in statistical significance and the reality that "there's safety in numbers" or "the principle of large numbers" or whatever else one wants to call it: the closer your win-rate is to 50% (on either side of it), the smaller is the number of trades one needs to observe to calculate a safe position-size with a high degree of confidence that one is basing it on genuine statistical significance. On some level, I don't "trust" trades with "90% confidence". I don't mean just "90% confidence in having the overall direction right": obviously an entry method is not a trading method - there's far more to it than that (and I understand that you know this already and meant far more than just that, too).

Thirdly, I feel very much safer and more confident trading "comparatively little and comparatively often" and have really found it both far easier and far more realistic, overall, to make a living that way than with other methods I've tried. Three consecutive accidents with the kind of position-sizing you mentioned in your original post would be an extraordinary disaster for me, giving me a far bigger drawdown than I've had for many years. (And who hasn't, at some point, had three consecutive accidents, even with "very confident trades"?)

I'll be honest - again, very much hoping that I don't offend you - and mention that I saw your original post not long after you made it, was seriously perplexed by it, and decided not to reply only because I suspected that I'd misunderstood what you were saying: it didn't seem possible or reasonable for someone with a substantial account to be risking 6% of that account on a single position. (The way the thread's gone, I'm now more confident that you did indeed mean that, and I wish I'd replied earlier!).

I appreciate that everyone's concepts of risk management and degrees of risk aversion are different, and that we don't all have to agree all the time (and indeed that it would be boring if we did!), but honestly, I'm with the person who posted on the previous page, responding very succinctly to your observation that you want to increase your position-size still further, by saying simply "Don't".
angry-smiley-034.gif
(He probably said in a word more or less what I'm saying in 13 paragraphs ... but that happens, too.)





I don't really agree with this. I can "kind of agree, up to a point", but I strongly suspect that you've gone well beyond that point in terms of practical realities.

Trading frequency is relevant, too - not just win-rate.

Very high win-rates tend to preceed accidents.

I understand the attraction of high win-rates (which of course arise from "being ultra-selective"), but I strongly prefer the perspective that what matters isn't "being right as often as possible" but simply "steadily gaining more from the totals of winning trades than you lose from the totals of losers".

I wish you nothing but well with your 90%-confidence trades, but please excuse my mentioning that I'd be distinctly uncomfortable with them, myself, and (call me conservative or even a skepchick) I strongly suspect that I'd probably assess them at a lower figure, too.





By weight of numbers, and by experience, and by calculating my position-sizing far, far more conservatively than I suspect you do, on the basis of far, far bigger sample-sizes than I'm ever going to manage to assemble with very high win-rates (and their concommitantly low trading frequencies). I avoid fear by having great confidence - statistical confidence: every time I enter a trade, I can't tell you with any great confidence whether it will be a winner or a loser, but I can tell you with a really high degree of confidence what the overall outcome of my next 300 trades will be. And that's what matters to me. That confidence, for me, is another name for what you referred to in your title question as "lack of fear" or "getting over the fear". So there you go: at least I've answered your question directly, even if the answer was just my own perspective.

Yes.

In real life, traders and gamblers have to have an edge and do volume; lots and lots of trades and bets.

If you daytrade and earn a penny a share profit, how much volume must you do? How about earning two pennies a share?

Just how big an edge do people think can have manually daytrading, if they have one at all?
Of course the algos are doing volume.

In theory, and once in a very blue moon practice, 90 percent winning big edge bets can occur. However, I do not know of successful day traders or gamblers who only wait and wait and punch big.

I do know of a few successful investors and speculators like Buffett and Soros who are patient, skilled and sometimes wait and wait.
____

Story:

I knew a huge Nasdaq scalper who made millions.

One day he received a call shortly after 9/11 that a plane had gone down near.. I forget.. big Eastern city. This information was not on his news feed.

Well.. he instantly shorted the SPY for the largest size he had ever traded and nervously waited for 15 minutes until the news hit. He won big.

But this was his only ever "special" big trade. Everything else was edge plus volume, volume, volume.
 
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Yes.

In real life, traders and gamblers have to have an edge and do volume; lots and lots of trades and bets.

If you daytrade and earn a penny a share profit, how much volume must you do? How about earning two pennies a share?

Just how big an edge do people think can have manually daytrading, if they have one at all?
Of course the algos are doing volume.

In theory, and once in a very blue moon practice, 90 percent winning big edge bets can occur. However, I do not know of successful day traders or gamblers who only wait and wait and punch big.

I do know of a few successful investors and speculators like Buffett and Soros who are patient, skilled and sometimes wait and wait.
____

Story:

I knew a huge Nasdaq scalper who made millions.

One day he received a call shortly after 9/11 that a plane had gone down near.. I forget.. big Eastern city. This information was not on his news feed.

Well.. he instantly shorted the SPY for the largest size he had ever traded and nervously waited for 15 minutes until the news hit. He won big.

But this was his only ever "special" big trade. Everything else was edge plus volume, volume, volume.


WARNING: The fellow in my story who made millions scalping years ago no longer scalps because his edge went away.

Things change. Sometimes the only winning move is not to play.

Or as Charlie Munger says:

"Tell me where I am going to die so I will not go there."
 
WARNING: The fellow in my story who made millions scalping years ago no longer scalps because his edge went away.

Things change. Sometimes the only winning move is not to play.

Or as Charlie Munger says:

"Tell me where I am going to die so I will not go there."
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WEll, 777, like the top man at CME or one of those top Chicago exchanges said ''innovation deserves more than 15 minutes'':D:cool::thumbsup: WARNING ;trading is not gambling@ all; done both. We used to gamble/ jerk .25 [quarters] out of of pool halls, as kids,; the fact that some commercial traders use .25 levels also has nothing to do with pool halls.Thanks
 
I had a good trading day today. However my position size was $3k. I was told to go big on high probability trades. I have more than 50k in my account that is waiting to be used. This is not margin.
However, I keep telling myself I will go bigger on the next trade.
Would love to hear how others went through the process of increasing position size?
IMHO, if not sure or cannot pull the trigger, use Kelly criterion as a guide.

For example your win probability is 90% (your prior posts) and your win payoff is 1:1 (your short option spreads are worthless at expiry), assuming your loss payoff is also 1:1, i.e., you manage your losing trade carefully. Then your Kelly is .28. So your bet size of $3 K is ~2/10 Kelly. Actually not too conservative considering you may not be able to manage your loser to 1:1.

If you are confident of your win & loss rate, then go to 1/2 Kelly or $7 K, which I won't recommend as you are relatively new to options, like me.

Good luck.
 
IMHO, if not sure or cannot pull the trigger, use Kelly criterion as a guide.

For example your win probability is 90% (your prior posts) and your win payoff is 1:1 (your short option spreads are worthless at expiry), assuming your loss payoff is also 1:1, i.e., you manage your losing trade carefully. Then your Kelly is .28. So your bet size of $3 K is ~2/10 Kelly. Actually not too conservative considering you may not be able to manage your loser to 1:1.

If you are confident of your win & loss rate, then go to 1/2 Kelly or $7 K, which I won't recommend as you are relatively new to options, like me.

Good luck.

I don't trade options. I think you must have read someone else's post. And I don't know how you got the idea that my win payoff is 1:1
 
Lol, if you have 90% chance of winning 1 and 10% chance of losing 1, the optimal fraction to bet aka Kelly is 80%, not 28%.

For example your win probability is 90% (your prior posts) and your win payoff is 1:1 (your short option spreads are worthless at expiry), assuming your loss payoff is also 1:1, i.e., you manage your losing trade carefully. Then your Kelly is .28. So your bet size of $3 K is ~2/10 Kelly. Actually not too conservative considering you may not be able to manage your loser to 1:1.
 
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