How do I get my ego out of my trading?

Quote from John Merchant:

Paper TRADING
Is Mastur BADING.

Is why it feel so good.
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mike - youre mad buddy. mad mad mad.

paper trading is easy because there is no ego. no pleasure or pain, fear or greed, loss or gain.

so we can make uncommitted assessments of probability more easily. there is no emotion in paper trading as money isnt on the line - and thus our pride is not at steak.

this is how we must learn to trade when money really is on the line. there should be no difference in our decision making.

this is why i am sure you feelings of high and low that you describe could be self defeating - although i am sure you will tell me im wrong - may be i am. what i say is just how i see my emotions affecting MY trading.

so you feel over the moon when you win.
your ego is massaged.
you become super trader.
the markets cant get you anymore.
so you may as well take this set up cos you cant be hurt now youve cracked it right?


BAAAAMMMM!!!!!!

OUCH!!!

:mad:
 
"It is the REAL difference between one's mental image and reality that causes the emotion." Sounds like that describes an unpleasant emotion. Does that mean that if image and reality are in harmony you get a pleasant one? Like I woke up in bed this morning with a fat girl who still looks good to me? If you had ever been manic, or even hypo-, you would know that emotions can be delusions. Even intoxication will suffice.
 
My dad who used to trade next to me always thought of the market exactly like a casino (he's been playing blackjack steadily for about 30 yrs) and therefore each trade was a "gamble" to him. Hence, he had very little ego invested into each trade and was excellent at taking losses without letting it get personal (making profits was another story). The problem with ego really starts when you begin to progress and believe you have an edge, and therefore deserve to make money.
 
Quote from 5yrtrader:

I think seperating yourself from trading is impossible, your ego(emotions) are your greatest weapon. You may be able to block your ego out for a period of time, but he will come back in the form of a huge catostrophic loss. I think it is better to know what taking losses feels like, learn to enjoy it, a small loss means you are that much closer to a big winner, and you are trading correctly. People that repress their feelings require years of therapy to fix it. (Ever seen the movie "The Cell?")

Therefore my answer to the title is: Don't, put more of your ego into trading.
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Forgive me, but I think that your view is misguided. However, let us begin with a clarification. I don't think that ego is synonymous with emotions, as the first sentence of your post suggests. Ego has to do with self-esteem. Self-esteem, in turn, may have an effect on your emotions. People whose self-esteem is threatened tend to have exaggerated emotions. At least, that is my current understanding.

I agree that addressing emotions is a good and healthy thing, but I doubt that the trading arena is the appropriate place to do so. For example, if I required neurosurgery, I agree that I would probably not want to be operated on by a repressed and tightly wound surgeon. However, neither would I want to place myself into the hands of someone whose ego is so closely and exclusively tied to his occupation that he is desperately afraid to make a mistake and he wears all of his exaggerated feelings on his sleeve. That's when things tend to get out of hand and problems take on a life of their own.

What Mr. Ross wrote makes sense to me. If you can somehow detach your ego (self-esteem) from your trading (and especially your day-to-day results), then the emotions that you freely experience during trading hours will be relatively benign. The idea is not so much to ignore your emotions as it is to separate your self-esteem (ego) from your trading so that the resulting emotions do not overwhelm. Admittedly, however, it is sometimes far easier said than done.
 
Quote from Thunderdog:

Forgive me, but I think that your view is misguided.

I agree that addressing emotions is a good and healthy thing, but I doubt that the trading arena is the appropriate place to do so. For example, if I required neurosurgery, I agree that I would probably not want to be operated on by a repressed and tightly wound surgeon. However, neither would I want to place myself into the hands of someone whose ego is so closely and exclusively tied to his occupation that he is desperately afraid to make a mistake and he wears all of his exaggerated feelings on his sleeve. That's when things tend to get out of hand and problems take on a life of their own.

What Mr. Ross wrote makes sense to me. If you can somehow detach your ego (self-esteem) from your trading (and especially your day-to-day results), then the emotions that you freely experience during trading hours will be relatively benign. The idea is not so much to ignore your emotions as it is to separate your self-esteem (ego) from your trading so that the resulting emotions do not overwhelm. Admittedly, however, it is sometimes far easier said than done.
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this reminds me of something that has perplexed me for quite some time...

surgeons, jumbo jet pilots, and other occupations have human lives in their hands every single day.

just a single loss of human life is a travesty if it is lost unnecessarily, let alone through negligence. it is a joke to compare a traders loss of a few hundred/thousand bucks to this obviously.

you never hear of these occupations having such in depth analysis into the psychology of their occupations as you do traders, yet the impact of a mistake on their part is magnified beyond that which money can ever measure.

im sure if a surgeon suddenly decided to hesitate pulling the trigger - decide which drug to administer at the right time there would be death

if a jumbo pilot forgets to put the landing gear down - use a stop loss, then CRUNCH!!!

im sure im on to something here - i just dont know what!!!

:confused:
 
Quote from FredBloggs:

this reminds me of something that has perplexed me for quite some time...

surgeons, jumbo jet pilots, and other occupations have human lives in their hands every single day.

just a single loss of human life is a travesty if it is lost unnecessarily, let alone through negligence. it is a joke to compare a traders loss of a few hundred/thousand bucks to this obviously.

you never hear of these occupations having such in depth analysis into the psychology of their occupations as you do traders, yet the impact of a mistake on their part is magnified beyond that which money can ever measure.

im sure if a surgeon suddenly decided to hesitate pulling the trigger - decide which drug to administer at the right time there would be death

if a jumbo pilot forgets to put the landing gear down - use a stop loss, then CRUNCH!!!

im sure im on to something here - i just dont know what!!!

:confused:
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Good point.

Here is my take on your observation. First, we need to distinguish trading from most other occupations. Physicians, pilots and those in other such occupations require extensive and regimented training. There is no such thing in the markets. It is not regimented, and few people are genuinely prepared for the challenges once they begin trading. I think that there is a propensity to initially underestimate the challenge of trading and then to jump to the other extreme in response to this oversight. How many people have done little more than read Market Wizards and obtained a data feed before calling themselves traders? Perhaps I am exaggerating, but I think you get the point. In general, traders who are just starting out are not nearly as prepared for their occupations as people in most other fields are.

Second, I think that trading subjects a person to far more uncertainty than do other occupations. People here on ET keep talking about "probabilities." There are no probabilities in the markets because there is no set probability distribution going forward. There is only uncertainty with, at best, a general feeling or bias for the "balance of probability." The "if-then" relationship is far looser in trading than in any other occupation that comes to mind. I think that this is generally quite unsettling to human nature. Therefore, I think that trading requires the capacity to deal with far more uncertainty than most other occupations, and that requires a fair amount of self-esteem. It is not necessarily the size or importance of the "mistakes" that makes trading so challenging. Rather, it is the ubiquity of "mistakes."

Of course, I could be wrong.
 
Quote from Thunderdog:

Second, I think that trading subjects a person to far more uncertainty than do other occupations. People here on ET keep talking about "probabilities." There are no probabilities in the markets because there is no set probability distribution going forward. There is only uncertainty with, at best, a general feeling or bias for the "balance of probability." The "if-then" relationship is far looser in trading than in any other occupation that comes to mind. I think that this is generally quite unsettling to human nature. Therefore, I think that trading requires the capacity to deal with far more uncertainty, and the resulting "mistakes," than most other occupations, and that requires a fair amount of self-esteem.

Of course, I could be wrong.
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I think you're right. My take on this is that a healthy ego is one that removes the bias created by emotion and can accept mistakes without anger and/or frustration.

I think we all experience a discomfort level while in any trade - at least I do. I get uncomfortable quite often. Why? Because I know the markets take as quickly as they give - I have a need to react quicker than the market to not strike out too often. I bring in baseball because I remember getting the same discomfort (usually in the stomach) when I played baseball in college. Stepping up to plate always made me uncomfortable because I never knew what the pitcher was going to give me. I love that feeling of uncertaintly and trading gives me that feeling. I guess you can call it a compulsion but it has served me well in sports and in trading.

The uncertainty causes my discomfort and IMO you have to be able to thrive in uncomfortable circumstances in this game. Understand that probabilities work in both directions - a loss will turn into a larger loss and a gain will turn into a larger gain. That is really the only probability you need to know.

Anyway, if you don't like being uncomfortable with money then this probably isn't the buisness for you. My conclusion is that one needs to dissolve the ego from the money and learn to enjoy and look forward to the uncomfortable moments.

Mike
 
Just started reading 12 habitudes of highly successful traders, and Exceptional Trading the mind game.

Very good and she goes beyond just the ego and addresses all aspects individually that need to be addressed. She is also a successful trader.
 
Quote from Joe Ross:



I once wrote that trading is a business in which there is no competition. I meant that in the sense that the only competition in trading is yourself. The market is impersonal. It doesn’t know you or care about you.

All the best in your trading,

Joe Ross
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Ivory tower psychobabble.

I am hard on myself on every losing trade and pretend that I'm down 50K every morning -- keeps me humble and sharpens the focus. The market is a worthy opponent, and I treat it as such.

I don't wake up every morning and say "Gee Marky, just remember that the only competition is me." As with Mr. Merchant, I revel in other people's financial pain. To me, there is no greater pleasure than fading an opening range breakout and watching the shorts get their nuts squeezed. Are you going to sit there like a lotus flower or laugh your ass off? This is life man!
 
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