I've interviewed with a couple and bombed. I had almost 2 years equities trading experience with WTS where I was net positive in the market by about $4000, but was never able to get past their expensive platform fees to build my account. I only had about $5000 of my own capital to work with. I ended up walking away with about $500 less than what I started with, though I was positive after the first few months where I was down $2000. I didn't want to blow my account so I had strict risk management. Now very few legit prop firms that train people will even give me an interview. I contacted Trillium and they said that my trading experience was a liability. I did have one in person interview with Hard 8 where they flew me out to Vegas, but I was so nervous I couldn't sleep the night before and choked. I had a couple of phone interviews, including one with a firm in Singapore, but apparently I didn't tell them what they wanted to hear so they rejected me. I really want to do trading and have for years, but I've decided if I don't get a trading job in the next month I'm going to try professional poker. I'm willing to go global, but I'm probably not going to get in a HFT shop, because my programming skills are limited, although I'm willing to learn. I applied to almost all the major firms in NYC and Chicago. Most just never contacted me back.
How do I break in with a legit prop firm?
- Thread starter kmgilroy89
- Start date
Get a real career instead of these speculative activities where the risk neutral probability of succeeding is 1% and the cost of failure is becoming a used car salesman. It's not too late for you, but it will be if you putz around for a few more years.
I remember you. You are the "raw talent" who wanted to look at charts and have CNBC in the background.
I remember you. You are the "raw talent" who wanted to look at charts and have CNBC in the background.
"....if I don't get a trading job in the next month I'm going to try professional poker ..."
I'm sorry, but you've answered your own question. This has failure written all over it.
I'm sorry, but you've answered your own question. This has failure written all over it.
That's pretty much what I did for almost 2 years. It's pretty much what most people did at WTS. Although I did more tape reading than look at charts. I get the feeling that a lot of professionals at these top firms use the options market more to make trades and take a hard look at volatility to find opportunity. That's just the sense I got from some interviews in asking about their trading. I have completed my MS in Mathematics since then. I actually think poker would be a fairly easy profession since I'm able to stay calm. My best game is Omaha 8 which has a lower variance and has a higher rate of return than Hold'em. I'm just more interested in trading. I'm not ready to get a "real career" like being an actuary or something like that.
By the way, Im not calling you a failure. I'm making the point that if you present yourself to anybody with this attitude it reeks of failure.
Watch "Whiplash" and honestly answer the question of if you're willing to put that level of effort into it. There's no fault in answering no.
if it's a yes, then you'll find a way.
if it's a yes, then you'll find a way.
Well, I've been trying a long time to get a trading position so I'm a bit demoralized. I've applied to probably every major firm over the course of the past 2.5 years. I need a backup plan. I have a set date to begin my backup plan if I fail to get a trading position or am not in the process of interviewing during that time. I can't just keep applying forever. I need to move on at some point and do something else for a while. I'll probably never stop applying though.
You should attempt to compute how much your prior prop firm made off of you including ALL fees, markups, etc. Even if you do end up in the trading business consider yourself fortunate if you don't get a "prop firm" job. Prop firms mostly direct you to doing things that maximize their benefit, not yours.
And why shouldn't they, they have a business to run, unlike their "new recruits" who tend to have smarts plus enthusiasm but a complete lack of business or common sense and as such, an inability to see what is really going on. "New recruits" even at good firms are mostly there to churn equity and milk fees off of. Ive seen even the best who find some kind of niche (or are taught one) flame out fairly quickly after their initial niche fails, then they are left quite often with nothing as they blew their money on a fancy condo, cars, etc.
Any position that applies your analytical intelligence is a good position, IMO. Why be hell bent on becoming a degenerate gambler which even the best gamblers tend to be - never seeing the larger business perspective, mostly caught in a world of risk while being milked as someone elses reliable profit center.
And why shouldn't they, they have a business to run, unlike their "new recruits" who tend to have smarts plus enthusiasm but a complete lack of business or common sense and as such, an inability to see what is really going on. "New recruits" even at good firms are mostly there to churn equity and milk fees off of. Ive seen even the best who find some kind of niche (or are taught one) flame out fairly quickly after their initial niche fails, then they are left quite often with nothing as they blew their money on a fancy condo, cars, etc.
Any position that applies your analytical intelligence is a good position, IMO. Why be hell bent on becoming a degenerate gambler which even the best gamblers tend to be - never seeing the larger business perspective, mostly caught in a world of risk while being milked as someone elses reliable profit center.
These are all the firms that have given me an interview over the past few years and where I got axed, phone screen implies no technical questions:
3Red- 1st round
Akuna- Online pattern recognition test, hardest test I've ever taken, probably spent too long on the hard questions, should have skipped them
Hard8- 2nd round and only in person interview
Ingensoma (Singapore)- 1st round (phone screen)
JaneStreet- 3rd round for internship (people have said if I made it to the 3rd round with them I should be able to get a position somewhere)
Optiver- Online math test, 80 questions in 5 minutes, was too slow
Peak6- Passed online test, 1st round (phone screen) for internship
Ronin Capital- 1st round (phone screen)
TMG- 1st round for internship
There's a long list of firms that never gave me an interview. If I did a phone screen with no technicals I wasn't telling them what they wanted to hear and if I had technical questions it strengthened my chances of moving on. I don't know if this turns them off, but I usually mention that I see trading as very similar to professional poker where proper bankroll management and only taking positions you believe are +EV to be critical to success.
3Red- 1st round
Akuna- Online pattern recognition test, hardest test I've ever taken, probably spent too long on the hard questions, should have skipped them
Hard8- 2nd round and only in person interview
Ingensoma (Singapore)- 1st round (phone screen)
JaneStreet- 3rd round for internship (people have said if I made it to the 3rd round with them I should be able to get a position somewhere)
Optiver- Online math test, 80 questions in 5 minutes, was too slow
Peak6- Passed online test, 1st round (phone screen) for internship
Ronin Capital- 1st round (phone screen)
TMG- 1st round for internship
There's a long list of firms that never gave me an interview. If I did a phone screen with no technicals I wasn't telling them what they wanted to hear and if I had technical questions it strengthened my chances of moving on. I don't know if this turns them off, but I usually mention that I see trading as very similar to professional poker where proper bankroll management and only taking positions you believe are +EV to be critical to success.
The big advantage young traders have is that they can usually arrange for their living expenses to be incredibly low. Get a crappy part-time McJob (weekends only) and keep practicing trading. Even if it doesn't work out you'll still be young and you'll have a great story for later, when you're looking for a real job.
Do look around for a method of trading and a broker that allows you to keep your expenses low. Of course these go together. But I get the idea that you're smart enough to do this. I think you understand trading as a business which is the important thing.
Right now I'm too busy in academia to spend much time trading but I have the money.
Life is like that, you will either have enough time or enough money but it seems like almost never both.
Do look around for a method of trading and a broker that allows you to keep your expenses low. Of course these go together. But I get the idea that you're smart enough to do this. I think you understand trading as a business which is the important thing.
Right now I'm too busy in academia to spend much time trading but I have the money.
Life is like that, you will either have enough time or enough money but it seems like almost never both.