How Common Are Really Large Successful Traders

[wrbtrader]

I would define any year with a negative draw-down as unsuccessful once a trader becomes profitable. The expenses a retail trader has a sole source of income warrant an increasing equity curve not just steady returns, as you mentioned, health insurance, high tax on gains, etc.

Trading is becoming even more futile for retail traders, I advise them to abandon this lost cause, due to the recent advancements in technology. You can say you're not competing with institutions but your stops and limit orders are filled or not filled due to their algorithms.

Something still doesn't make sense.

1) You a retail trader ? Yes or No (I've again asked this question)

You specifically stated in a recent reply that you subscribe to CQG. Therefore, if you're not a retail trader...you a hedge fund manager or a professional trader working for someone. This is probably the most important question because you then become transparent about your issue with retail trading.

2) What do you say to retail traders that use algorithms ?

This is a very important question because recently, some of the documented spoofing (e.g. London case) are being performed by folks trading from their homes as retail traders. Simply, some folks out there are actually good programmers while trading their own account.

3) Some firms that have quants and use algorithms and HFT...are losing money.

P.S. You've now changed your statement after I asked earlier if you were a retail trader. For example, you had stated recently that trading IS futile. Now you've changed it to that trading is becoming more futile for retail traders. Those are two different statements because the latter implies you are a retail trader that's not profitable.

P.S.S. Trading has always been not profitable for most since markets birth. That's common knowledge.

Edit: I was incorrect. After a quick review...you have consistently stated that trading is "becoming" more difficult for retail traders. We just don't agree on the reasons for such.

I gave an outline not too long ago about why many folks are not ready to be a retail trader in today's markets in comparison the years when retail trading was popularized. I gave further hints about why Forex is becoming more popular today with retail trading. Reasons are all connected.

 

[wrbtrader]

...You can say you're not competing with institutions but your stops and limit orders are filled or not filled due to their algorithms.

To be clear again...

You're not required to compete with algorithms especially you truly believe they are problematic in whatever it is you're trading. Yet, if algorithms does not impact your trading...you're good to go.

Therefore, if you truly believe a particular trading instrument is being influenced by algorithms in a negative way...do not trade those markets. I'm just not sure why you having problems understanding that.

Seriously, someone here recently was bitching about some stock being heavily manipulated. Yet, he keeps trading it. That type of retail trading doesn't make sense to me considering the goal is to be profitable.

Thus, if I was like you or like that other guy and feel that algorithms have a negative influence on what I was trading...

1) I would stop trading that market

2) I would go find another market to trade

I'm really not sure why some folks have problems understanding the above.

Similar like...lots of people come here and say they are profitable in the morning trading session but give back all their profits in the afternoon trading session.

Why is if so difficult to understand if the goal is to be a profitable trader. Don't trade the afternoon trading session if it consistently takes away your morning profits.

Ok, I get it. Some trading instruments look more prettier to trade than others because your buddy trades it or its just popular to trade. I also get it that some traders think to be a profitable trader...they're require to trade the entire trading session instead of only trading when they tend to be profitable (this is why you need to keep stats of your real trading).

Those types of stubborn trading habits is a big problem for retail traders in today's markets in comparison to retail traders many many years ago. A long time ago...folks would trade a few hours and call it quits for the day. Today's markets, folks keep saying if you make money...keep trading even though you know before fact that if you keep trading...you're going to lose the money you had made.

Once again, if you have a problem with algos...don't trade markets they are heavily involved in. In contrast, if you don't have a problem with algos...trade those markets. Its really that simple.

Retail traders have a bad habit of not able to adjust or adapt in comparison to professional traders. Most professional traders will trade "anything" if it will make them money. That's not the mentality of the typical retail trader...we easily get stuck in the mud (married to a bad situation) until drawdowns, blowups occur and then after losing it all...suddenly we're now ready and open to adapting.

It really is a big psychological problem.

 

[Q3D]

I am retail/discretionary trader and that's who I am suggesting are unable to consistently profit from day trading and I don't believe even master trading gurus are profitable as I define it in the above post.

Wrbtrader, are you consistently successful (with an increasing or at least stable equity curve) for multiple years at day trading since becoming profitable? Most who would say yes to this question would admit that trading is only a supplementary form of income, so day trading is mostly futile even for most profitable traders until they start selling shit.

 

[wrbtrader]

I am retail/discretionary trader and that's who I am suggesting are unable to consistently profit from day trading and I don't believe even master trading gurus are profitable as I define it in the above post.

Wrbtrader, are you consistently successful (with an increasing or at least stable equity curve) for multiple years at day trading since becoming profitable? Most who would say yes to this question would admit that trading is only a supplementary form of income, so day trading is mostly futile even for most profitable traders until they start selling shit.

Ok...day trading doesn't work for you as a retail trader. Why don't you try swing trading, position trading or even investing ?

Simply, I just don't understand why someone like you with such a consistent doom/gloom outlook as a retail trader but you continue paying your data vendor CQG every month for access to data.

Seriously, if you were a struggling retail trader that believes you will eventually figure it out...that's ok but something is psychological offset when a retail trader continues preaching its futile while continue down that path...trading then becomes more like a debt per month. Yet, if you're rich and you don't mind paying CQG or any other vendor every month just to be a trader...that's ok too.

Therefore, its time for you to change if you truly believe trading is futile. It's time to adapt because you're seriously stuck in the mud about day trading and retail trading because your consistent negativity is proof of such. Thus, if I was in your shoes, I wouldn't hesitate in trying something different (e.g. swing trading, different trading instrument).

Reminder to you, psychology of trading is a big issue for discretionary traders...arguably more important than anything else.

I don't discuss my losses or profits at this forum but there are several traders in my family/relatives and I am the only retail trader. I do get a lot of flack for such from them.

 

[Cswim63]

You hear stories about these super large traders like that japanese CIS guy who made 9 figures from 5 figures more recently making 34m in one day.

Does anyone in retail circuits actually place $100,000,000+ trades on margin ?

All those market wizards guys who cleaned up during their time.

How do these folks run up such large amounts of capital without losing it all along the way.

You would have to take some pretty big risks to go from 10-100k to 10-100m in a couple of years.

Or are they a thing of myth, rarer than moviestars, pro athletes etc

Try just accepting who you are first and then maybe your trading will get better. The present moment is the only place from which I can act. Not tomorrow or yesterday. And I really only need to take care of myself, and share with others if I can. And I don't have to do it perfectly, but I'll probably try to anyway. . .

 

[galvinlee888]

this is true. it's even possible that institutional training - finance/econ degree, working at a bank or in a fund, etc is actually an impediment to success in the market. that training gives the illusion of expertise, and that expertise is predicting the future. hence if you go on twitter and listen to the fund wannabees, they all have opinions about the future. this company will do well for these reasons, the economy will do this, it's at this point in the cycle, the market is a weighing machine in the long run, these factors lead to outperformance, etc. they are under the illusion that their job is to have correct opinions about the future. they will say things like "I sold this stock because my opinion of the business changed" or "I doubled down because the stock was cheaper. If you liked it higher you should like it lower." That's true - if you can predict the future. it's almost as if nobody has ever heard of the efficient market hypothesis. They dismiss "losers average losers" and other trading rules because they have correct opinions about the future, which is their area of expertise.

Now there may be some people who can predict the future, and with some skill . . . but we don't know that, today. And the odds are against it. Better to game the system (by following time-tested trading rules) than try to beat the system at its own game.

Not sure if you are referring to those losers that work (or should I say contracted) in prop firm or someone that really work in financial institutions?

Both are different.

 

[Javier]

About the millions--> you cant make more money that there is on the table. Money have not a reproductory (sorry for my eng) system as bio-cells.

 

[tommo]

I've been a self backed proprietary trader for almost 11 years.
So I'm very qualified to give an opinion.

I think you need prop firm levels of leverage and infrastructure to make really meaningful amounts. So I view retail traders as the first class you have to graduate from to then get to prop firm level. But you certainly don't need to be a hedge fund manager or on a bank desk to make big money. Not by a long way.

To make a lot of money in the market it is a full time endeavour. Constant study, constantly reworking your strategies. I will trade all week then on a Sunday spend a few hours looking at new markets. Assess what I could have done differently etc. Anyone that thinks they can make millions trading part time with. $2k account is living in a dream land. It isn't going to happen until you practice for a long time and build that to 10-20k account at least then go full time.

In terms of success and success rates. I make low 6 figures a year. I am pushing to get that to >500k but it gives me a good life and I love what I do. But in terms of guys making in excess of a million a year there are more than you think.

Ignoring the trainees that have a pretty high failure rate out of the guys that survive their first year full time trading I've probably worked with about 100 of them. Rough ball park figures probably 10 of them make in excess of 5 mill a year and most of them are under 40 so wouldn't be surprised if in 10 years they are making double that.

 

[wrbtrader]

tommo,

The difference between the thread starter question (10 - 100million dollar trade) that he has defined as large successful traders...

Prop guys at your firm doing trades in that size ???

The guys I know doing 10 - 100million dollar trades are not called retail traders. Instead, they are professional traders identified as such by the broker and exchange. In fact, usually a retail trader with a very large account probably will not do 1 million dollar trades without seeking professional status or a seat on the exchange.

The only reason why I use retail traders as the example is only because the thread starter used the fame anonymous Japanese trader CSI...that guy is a retail trader (not a prop firm trader) that states (without verification) that he does million dollar trades...although not 10 - 100million trades.

Therefore, its a myth that a retail trader is able to do such.

 

[Q3D]

Al Brooks is a large successful trader. He has large amount of books, articles, webinars, presentations, very large.