How can Nikkei 225 not recover after so many years?

Most all of you guys are missing the point.

Japan's bubble was exacerbated by the same 'reflexivity' Soros refers to with respect to other bubbles. Did anyone mention a genuine economic boom here? The strong JPY afforded increased investment in capital/plant assets to reduce the price of goods to export, increasingly accelerate growth, increasing ability to speculate, etc. This wasn't a matter of government simply pumping money supply (like achilles28 is so quick to point out). Do your homework.

Their trade surpluses begat even wider surpluses, which begat even more growth (and wealth), fundamentally driving a boom in asset prices.

All booms are a function of the amount of the money in the system, but the source of that money varies. In Japan it was genuine economic prosperity via trade (but unsustainable at an exponentially growing rate) that fed the bubble.

Our present bubble is another story. Low risk premiums, financial engineering (faulty), deregulation, and generally unrealistic pricing of risk fueled our credit created money supply to prop up prices. No reason the fear, the US govt is replacing the credit created money supply with outright money printing in a rate Japan never *EVER* approached.

Everyone is quick to knock Japan, but their personal savings fundamentals are partially responsible for lack of stock price buoyance. Every dollar or yen hoarded in cash, and thus Japan's dilemma is very different from ours. We do the opposite, spending every dollar we earn, in addition to borrowing from the future to spend even more.

Stories and charts rhyme, but they all tell different stories, and expecting the same outcome is foolish. We're a lot more vulnerable to hyperinflation/inflation than Japan btw, just due to our embedded borrowing habits. Look at Japanese historical money supply data - it looks nothing like ours, and appears downright restrictive in comparison. The debt to gdp ratios don't tell the whole story, since they exclude personal wealth and debt levels held outside government coffers. None of this data is useful by itself in a vacuum.
 
Quote from OVVO:

Move up the capital structure. Forget equities and buy corporate debt. If not qualified, invest in a mutual fund that accomplishes this.

Why would you buy corporate debt in this area of dubious credit? Preferreds still are the no. 1 on the food chain.
 
Quote from scriabinop23:

Most all of you guys are missing the point.

Japan's bubble was exacerbated by the same 'reflexivity' Soros refers to with respect to other bubbles. Did anyone mention a genuine economic boom here? The strong JPY afforded increased investment in capital/plant assets to reduce the price of goods to export, increasingly accelerate growth, increasing ability to speculate, etc. This wasn't a matter of government simply pumping money supply (like achilles28 is so quick to point out). Do your homework.

Their trade surpluses begat even wider surpluses, which begat even more growth (and wealth), fundamentally driving a boom in asset prices.

All booms are a function of the amount of the money in the system, but the source of that money varies. In Japan it was genuine economic prosperity via trade (but unsustainable at an exponentially growing rate) that fed the bubble.

Our present bubble is another story. Low risk premiums, financial engineering (faulty), deregulation, and generally unrealistic pricing of risk fueled our credit created money supply to prop up prices. No reason the fear, the US govt is replacing the credit created money supply with outright money printing in a rate Japan never *EVER* approached.

Everyone is quick to knock Japan, but their personal savings fundamentals are partially responsible for lack of stock price buoyance. Every dollar or yen hoarded in cash, and thus Japan's dilemma is very different from ours. We do the opposite, spending every dollar we earn, in addition to borrowing from the future to spend even more.

Stories and charts rhyme, but they all tell different stories, and expecting the same outcome is foolish. We're a lot more vulnerable to hyperinflation/inflation than Japan btw, just due to our embedded borrowing habits. Look at Japanese historical money supply data - it looks nothing like ours, and appears downright restrictive in comparison. The debt to gdp ratios don't tell the whole story, since they exclude personal wealth and debt levels held outside government coffers. None of this data is useful by itself in a vacuum.

Nice post.

Is the red sentence what you meant to write.
 
Quote from tyrant:

Thanks for all replies.

The purpose of this thread is actually to question whether it is viable to start looking at investing in US. There are bargains everywhere. But when I look at the N225, I always hesitate to buy even at current prices because I cannot understand why N225 cannot recover after 20 years. There are some valid points mentioned regarding why it did what it did. However, I have to ask the more pertinent question now, which is, do you think SP500 will surpass the old high in 5 years or 10 years time? Given all the inflationary as well as deflationary arguments, it is all too confusing. Please let me know what you think. Given your knowledge of what a bubble is like, given the deflationary factor of commodities, given the low interest rate environment, given that real estate have corrected from a bubble?(was that a bubble?), given the confusing views of whether the USD will depreciate(because of printing) or possibly appreciate for some odd reasons, what is your judgment???:confused:

Recover is a relative term in that the market did rally from the lows of 7000 ish to around 19k which is more than double and a lot of people made good scratch from that. The same way people buying in now have a chance to make some good cash as well. Worry less about absolute tops and more where the current value is.
 
Quote from sumosam:

Why would you buy corporate debt in this area of dubious credit? Preferreds still are the no. 1 on the food chain.


Because you, me and Uncle Sam are going to back them. With rates going lower in a deflationary environment, spreads will remain wider albeit off a much lower base.
 
Quote from kiwi_trader:

Nice post.

Is the red sentence what you meant to write.

Must've been distracted ... Revised: 'No reason to fear, the US govt is printing money much better than the Japanese ever envisioned.'
 
Quote from tyrant:

Can anyone provide a good explanation as to why N225, or the Japanese stock market, has not been able to surpass its high of 38957 recorded in Dec 1989. Not only that, it has recently broken new low and is now trading at record low levels around 8500. After 19 years of hardwork and corporate earnings, how can the N225 be at its low? If it can happen to N225, why not the S&P 500? I mean Japan is not a Zimbabwean country. It is the second largest economy and it has generated so many powerful household brandnames. How can anyone say that stocks return about 10% over the long term? I really cannot comprehend. Please provide insights to me.

The anser is quite simple and can be found in demographics. Part of the reason is that the demographic that consisted of stock buyers who reached their peak in 1989, could not be replenished by the next generation.

Instead of looking at monetary policy, consider what will happen when the boomers retire. The next generation is a) not as great in number b) more in debt than the boomers were.

It doesn't get more deflationary than this. And now that the credit markets have lost confidence, the fed may have lost the power to prevent the upcoming deflationary shit storm. Just take a minute and look at the following chart, it says it all. And this doesn't just apply to stocks but to all asset classes. Liquidate. NOW.

2nk1cox.jpg
 
Quote from scriabinop23:

Most all of you guys are missing the point.

Japan's bubble was exacerbated by the same 'reflexivity' Soros refers to with respect to other bubbles. Did anyone mention a genuine economic boom here? The strong JPY afforded increased investment in capital/plant assets to reduce the price of goods to export, increasingly accelerate growth, increasing ability to speculate, etc. This wasn't a matter of government simply pumping money supply (like achilles28 is so quick to point out). Do your homework.

Their trade surpluses begat even wider surpluses, which begat even more growth (and wealth), fundamentally driving a boom in asset prices.

All booms are a function of the amount of the money in the system, but the source of that money varies. In Japan it was genuine economic prosperity via trade (but unsustainable at an exponentially growing rate) that fed the bubble.

Our present bubble is another story. Low risk premiums, financial engineering (faulty), deregulation, and generally unrealistic pricing of risk fueled our credit created money supply to prop up prices. No reason the fear, the US govt is replacing the credit created money supply with outright money printing in a rate Japan never *EVER* approached.

Everyone is quick to knock Japan, but their personal savings fundamentals are partially responsible for lack of stock price buoyance. Every dollar or yen hoarded in cash, and thus Japan's dilemma is very different from ours. We do the opposite, spending every dollar we earn, in addition to borrowing from the future to spend even more.

Stories and charts rhyme, but they all tell different stories, and expecting the same outcome is foolish. We're a lot more vulnerable to hyperinflation/inflation than Japan btw, just due to our embedded borrowing habits. Look at Japanese historical money supply data - it looks nothing like ours, and appears downright restrictive in comparison. The debt to gdp ratios don't tell the whole story, since they exclude personal wealth and debt levels held outside government coffers. None of this data is useful by itself in a vacuum.

Over-investment and over-supply is characteristic of any boom. Thanks for pointing out the obvious!
 
Quote from tyrant:

Can anyone provide a good explanation as to why N225, or the Japanese stock market, has not been able to surpass its high of 38957 recorded in Dec 1989. Not only that, it has recently broken new low and is now trading at record low levels around 8500. After 19 years of hardwork and corporate earnings, how can the N225 be at its low? If it can happen to N225, why not the S&P 500? I mean Japan is not a Zimbabwean country. It is the second largest economy and it has generated so many powerful household brandnames. How can anyone say that stocks return about 10% over the long term? I really cannot comprehend. Please provide insights to me.



??????
 
Quote from short&naked:

The anser is quite simple and can be found in demographics. Part of the reason is that the demographic that consisted of stock buyers who reached their peak in 1989, could not be replenished by the next generation.

Instead of looking at monetary policy, consider what will happen when the boomers retire. The next generation is a) not as great in number b) more in debt than the boomers were.

It doesn't get more deflationary than this. And now that the credit markets have lost confidence, the fed may have lost the power to prevent the upcoming deflationary shit storm. Just take a minute and look at the following chart, it says it all. And this doesn't just apply to stocks but to all asset classes. Liquidate. NOW.

2nk1cox.jpg



????
 
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