History and Movies

[Mav88]

c,

The very first racist comment in this thread came from RCG on page 3 or 4, of course. Then Ricter ponted out this movie was based on race in response to my bemoaning the fact that we can't have a good just a good war movie. Then I showed how the race discussion continues today about black pilots, and how blacks lag in areas of technical endeavor.

You call honestly discussing the truth of the matter white supremacy? Whatever, but I will not sacrifice my intellectual honesty just to please you guys.

 

[Mav88]

Over 10,500 US bombers were loss in WW2

The Tuskegee Airmen lost 25 bombers in 1578 missions

What other units with over 1,500 missions loss 25 bombers or less ?

little girl, every try reading?

ok, I DID NOT intend to become so diverted, but since the children cannot help themselves....

Somebody *cough* cannot understand the difference between a sortie and a mission. Go look it up yourself, I am not going to spoon feed everything.

Let's dig deeper into the Air Force historians reports which can be found here:

http://www.tuskegee.edu/sites/www/U...rmen/Nine_Myths_About_the_Tuskegee_Airmen.pdf

http://www.tuskegee.edu/sites/www/U...EscortedBombersLosttoEnemyAircraft12.2011.pdf

Notice that they are at Tuskegee itself and the man heaps praise on the airman, and like myself he values accuracy and honesty. Hopefully we can dispense with any bias accusations.

The first thing one should notice is that the Air Force did not keep records about how many bombers any particular fighter wing lost, the historian had to do research in order to dispell the myth about never losing an aircraft.

The airman lost OVER 25 bombers to enemy fighters, he stopped researching when he reached that number for some reason. Of the 311 missions flown by the 332nd, 179 were bomber escort missions. Of the 179 escort missions only 33 of them encountered enemy aircraft. On at least 5 of those missions the 332nd lost bombers to enemy aircraft. I guess the guy just didn't want to research all 33 and come up with a definitive number. He had to also research german documents for each mission so it apparently was alot of work. The Air Force thought it important enough to set the record straight in any event. I think the Tuskegee myths were insulting the thousands of other pilots who served.

Other interesting anecdotes:

Another popular story, not verified by any historical evidence, is that the members of the 332d Fighter Group were so much better at bomber escort than the members of the other six fighter groups, the bombardment groups requested that they be escorted by the 332d Fighter Group. According to the story, white fighter pilots, unlike the black ones, abandoned the bombers they were assigned to escort in order to chase after enemy fighters to increase their aerial victory credit scores for fame and glory. One version of this story appears in Kai Wright’s book Soldiers of Freedom: An Illustrated History of African Americans in the Armed Forces (New York: Black Dog and Leventhal Publishers, 2002), p. 181: “Throughout the war, it [the 332d Fighter Group] flew bomber escorts- duty rejected by white pilots because it didn’t offer as much opportunity to earn kills, and thus praise and promotion- and earned a reputation as the air force’s most reliable escort.”21
There were a great many fighter escort groups in the Army Air Forces during World War II. In Europe they served with the Eighth and Fifteenth Air Forces. The Fifteenth Air Force alone had seven such fighter groups. To say that the 332d Fighter Group did a better job at escorting bombers than any of the other fighter groups is very difficult to prove from an examination of the World War II documents

Organization
Total aerial victories June 1944-April 1945 (15th Air Force)


1st Fighter Group 72
14th Fighter Group 85
31st Fighter Group 278
52d Fighter Group 224.5
82d Fighter Group 106
325th Fighter Group 252
332d Fighter Group 94

Sometimes one hears the claim that the Tuskegee Airmen were the first to shoot down German jets.11 Three Tuskegee Airmen, 1st Lt. Roscoe Brown, 1st Lt. Earl R. Lane, and 2nd Lt. Charles V. Brantley, each shot down a German Me-262 jet on March 24, 1945, during the longest Fifteenth Air Force mission, which went all the way to Berlin.12 However, American pilots shot down no less than sixty Me-262 aircraft before 24 March 1945. Most of these American pilots served in the Eighth Air Force.

and finally, something that resonates with my original purpose of the thread- I would have preferred a good movie with honesty. I agree with this conclusion.

Whoever dispenses with the myths that have come to circulate around the Tuskegee Airmen in the many decades since World War II emerges with a greater appreciation for what they actually accomplished. If they did not demonstrate that they were far superior to the members of the six non-black fighter escort groups of the Fifteenth Air Force with which they served, they certainly demonstrated that they were not inferior to them, either. Moreover, they began at a line farther back, overcoming many more obstacles on the way to combat. The Tuskegee Airmen proved that they were equal to the other fighter pilots with whom they served heroically during World War II. Their exemplary performance opened the door for the racial integration of the military services, beginning with the Air Force, and contributed ultimately to the end of racial segregation in the United States.

 

[AK Forty Seven]

Quote from Mav88:

little girl, every try reading?



http://www.tuskegee.edu/sites/www/U...rmen/Nine_Myths_About_the_Tuskegee_Airmen.pdf

http://www.tuskegee.edu/sites/www/U...EscortedBombersLosttoEnemyAircraft12.2011.pdf

Notice that they are at Tuskegee itself and the man heaps praise on the airman, and like myself he values accuracy and honesty. Hopefully we can dispense with any bias accusations.

The first thing one should notice is that the Air Force did not keep records about how many bombers any particular fighter wing lost, the historian had to do research in order to dispell the myth about never losing an aircraft.

The airman lost OVER 25 bombers to enemy fighters, he stopped researching when he reached that number for some reason. Of the 311 missions flown by the 332nd, 179 were bomber escort missions. Of the 179 escort missions only 33 of them encountered enemy aircraft. On at least 5 of those missions the 332nd lost bombers to enemy aircraft. I guess the guy just didn't want to research all 33 and come up with a definitive number. He had to also research german documents for each mission so it apparently was alot of work. The Air Force thought it important enough to set the record straight in any event. I think the Tuskegee myths were insulting the thousands of other pilots who served.

I'll take The Air Forces word over your source


"The Air Force conducted a reassessment of the history of the unit in late 2006. The subsequent report, based on after-mission reports filed by both the bomber units and Tuskegee fighter groups, as well as missing air crew records and witness testimony, documented 25 bombers shot down by enemy fighter aircraft while being escorted by the Tuskegee Airmen"

 

[Mav88]

I'll take The Air Forces word(emphasis mine) over your source


"The Air Force conducted a reassessment of the history of the unit in late 2006. The subsequent report, based on after-mission reports filed by both the bomber units and Tuskegee fighter groups, as well as missing air crew records and witness testimony, documented 25 bombers shot down by enemy fighter aircraft while being escorted by the Tuskegee Airmen"

You need to stop, really, you need to stop embarrassing yourself. Understand something first, then try posting

My source: Dr. Daniel L. Haulman, Air Force Historical Research Agency Updated 26 Nov 2008

...and I told you that he said that there were probably more than 25 because he didn't research all 33 escort missions involving enemy fighters

 

[AK Forty Seven]

Quote from Mav88:

You need to stop, really, you need to stop embarrassing yourself. Understand something first, then try posting

My source: Dr. Daniel L. Haulman, Air Force Historical Research Agency Updated 26 Nov 2008

...and I told you that he said that there were probably more than 25 because he didn't research all 33 escort missions involving enemy fighters

When the Air Force officially updates their TA bomber losses get back to me.Today the Air Force says the TA loss 25 bombers and compiled that number from multiple sources and records





"The Air Force conducted a reassessment of the history of the unit in late 2006. The subsequent report, based on after-mission reports filed by both the bomber units and Tuskegee fighter groups, as well as missing air crew records and witness testimony, documented 25 bombers shot down by enemy fighter aircraft while being escorted by the Tuskegee Airmen"

 

[Mav88]

When the Air Force officially updates their TA bomber losses get back to me....

aww C'mon, really? REALLY? ... are you that fucking stupid?


My source: Dr. Daniel L. Haulman, Air Force Historical Research Agency Updated 26 Nov 2008

 

[Lucrum]

Quote from Mav88:

aww C'mon, really? REALLY? ... are you that fucking stupid?

(Psssst...I'm afraid so)

 

[AK Forty Seven]

Quote from Mav88:

aww C'mon, really? REALLY? ... are you that fucking stupid?


My source: Dr. Daniel L. Haulman, Air Force Historical Research

After-mission reports filed by both the bomber units and Tuskegee fighter groups, as well as missing air crew records and witness testimony > Dr. Daniel L. Haulman

 

[AK Forty Seven]

Quote from Mav88:

aww C'mon, really? REALLY? ... are you that fucking stupid?

You certainly are .You are also a piece of shit racist .

 

[Lucrum]

Quote from AK Forty Seven:

...You are also a piece of shit racist .

Ah the obligatory "I can't win based on the facts so you're a racist" response.

You go girl!