High frequency traders literally printing money!!! LITERALLY PRINTING MONEY!!!!

Quote from rufus_4000:

Fact is, vote with your Trades. It really is as simple as that.
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This is very good advice, and should be done whenever possible. Unfortunately, it isn't always that simple.

No brokerage company can survive without accepting payment for order flow in a market where these are paid, regardless of their moral position. In fact, my old company was one of those. They actively took part in fighting against payment for order flow, but still accept these fees in their brokerage division.

No trading company that needs to fill orders in the equities world can afford to not play the full game. They must use the liquidity provided in every center regardless of their moral position on dark pools for instance.

The market participants are forced to play the game by the current rules. Payment for order flow, IOI's, and order internalization should not be allowed in any form.

I am open to suggestions as to how professional brokerage and market making companies can vote with their trades in protest, without sacrificing fiduciary duties.
 
Quote from rufus_4000:

I just flipped thru the entire thread. As many of you know, I run a HFT trading operation. I will make no specific arguments for or against HFT, am not here to win any intellectual argument, justify my systems' existence, or argue some morality point. Do I support some financial reform? Absolutely, but I have a biased standpoint, just as everybody else.

The point I think is very simple. Very very few ppl on this forum (and in general public, it seems) actually knows what it is that HFT firm does, and how it extracts profits. It is eeriely similar to a NYSE Specialist, trying to explain to ppl who have never set foot on an exchange trading pit, what is it they do, and what functions they provide (and as we see on May 6th, the "old scummy" specialists do serve some purpose). The "charges" are exactly the same. You have a portion of traders (both retail and professional), get so angry about the NYSE Specialist system, that they believe all Specialists are thieves and robbers, and should be burned figuratively and literally. You do have the few market participants who did game the system, and the cadre of Specialists is an "old boy's circle" that protects their own interests, bsolutely.

Fact is, vote with your Trades. It really is as simple as that.

It is like sitting down on a poker table, if you don't like the game, leave. Eurex suffered almost 60% decline in bund/bobl activity, after they introduced the 1/2 tick size that no one liked, they got the hint, and reversed their decision. Vote with your economic activities and heft.

Meanwhile, we can all have half dozen shots, and argue about the rigged markets supported by Comrade Obama (or Commandant Bush, which ever conspiracy theory you prefer) until we are blue in the face, but come 9:30 tomorrow, the market will open again. What purpose would that serve?
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^this. Too many tin-foil hats around here.....
 
Quote from rufus_4000:

I just flipped thru the entire thread. As many of you know, I run a HFT trading operation. I will make no specific arguments for or against HFT, am not here to win any intellectual argument, justify my systems' existence, or argue some morality point. Do I support some financial reform? Absolutely, but I have a biased standpoint, just as everybody else.

The point I think is very simple. Very very few ppl on this forum (and in general public, it seems) actually knows what it is that HFT firm does, and how it extracts profits. It is eeriely similar to a NYSE Specialist, trying to explain to ppl who have never set foot on an exchange trading pit, what is it they do, and what functions they provide (and as we see on May 6th, the "old scummy" specialists do serve some purpose). The "charges" are exactly the same. You have a portion of traders (both retail and professional), get so angry about the NYSE Specialist system, that they believe all Specialists are thieves and robbers, and should be burned figuratively and literally. You do have the few market participants who did game the system, and the cadre of Specialists is an "old boy's circle" that protects their own interests, bsolutely.

Fact is, vote with your Trades. It really is as simple as that.

It is like sitting down on a poker table, if you don't like the game, leave. Eurex suffered almost 60% decline in bund/bobl activity, after they introduced the 1/2 tick size that no one liked, they got the hint, and reversed their decision. Vote with your economic activities and heft.

Meanwhile, we can all have half dozen shots, and argue about the rigged markets supported by Comrade Obama (or Commandant Bush, which ever conspiracy theory you prefer) until we are blue in the face, but come 9:30 tomorrow, the market will open again. What purpose would that serve?
More...

pm on the date / location of the Bar and I'll tip a few shots with ya....

very good comments, and in all reality, very few traders and established sophisticated retail investors, whether they comment on these threads or not, understand what HF's do.

Yes, I agree they attempt to emulate what the NYSE Specialists role was, its just that they do not do that in complete replacement and automation of them, not that that was their objective in the first or second place anyway.

I know that those who decry using OOO's (Opening orders only) method of trading their proprietary or leveraged accounts really miss the diminished role of the NYSE Specialists....

HFT's certainly don't provide that paired service and "allow one to trade on the side of the Specialist as he opens the stocks for the days' trading".

either way, this is one of the most dynamic, complex, creative and innovative niche areas within the many various niche markets that comprise the American trading horizon.

ok, let's toast success....
 
Quote from Jerkstore:
No trading company that needs to fill orders in the equities world can afford to not play the full game.
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It can if trades are willing to pay higher fees. If they want to go with the cheapest options, they should not be complaining about dark pools
 
Quote from Jerkstore:

The victims in pre-arranged trading are the market participants NOT INVOLVED in the pre-arranged trade. The willing participants are the ones breaking the law.

IOI's are just pre-arranged trading by another name. It should not be allowed.
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no, sorry, ioi's aren't just 'pre-arranged' trading by another name. the reason: pre-arranged trades involve zero competition.

ioi's, however, can be competed for. you, me and 100 other guys making markets in those books can reject or fill that ioi as we see fit. once more than one person is alerted to the order and can trade on it, it's no longer pre-arranged.
 
Quote from Jerkstore:

This is very good advice, and should be done whenever possible. Unfortunately, it isn't always that simple.

No brokerage company can survive without accepting payment for order flow in a market where these are paid, regardless of their moral position. In fact, my old company was one of those. They actively took part in fighting against payment for order flow, but still accept these fees in their brokerage division.
More...
in equities, this is a non-issue even though they are paid there too. most all equity prop b/ds, and even a handful of retail b/d's, don't play this game.

No trading company that needs to fill orders in the equities world can afford to not play the full game. They must use the liquidity provided in every center regardless of their moral position on dark pools for instance.
More...
you're being insanely hyperbolic and this is obviously false. 'NO equity trading company?'... come on man. 'moral' position on darkbooks? what the hell? this is finance. these are markets. assess the competitiveness or anti-competitiveness of a product for the market and for your pocket and leave morality for priests and altar boys. even if you're talking 'randian morality', you still need to at least make one decent argument how darkpools IN EQUITIES (since this is your contention here) are anti-competitive... which, to date, i've not seen you, or anyone else in this thread make.

I am open to suggestions as to how professional brokerage and market making companies can vote with their trades in protest, without sacrificing fiduciary duties.
More...
buyout the investors and broker/trade privately.

otherwise, you have to rethink whether what you interpret as 'anti-competitve', or in your case 'immoral', might actually just be competition handing your ass to you. competition defines the rules of competition, not regulation. relying and enforcing the latter to protect you in a marketplace is energy poorly spent, imo.
 
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