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HFT vs Small Traders
- Thread starter emg
- Start date
Quote from Bob111:
and that's why imo they are hardest(in terms of steady and stable results). after 10 years of trading and working on various systems i was unable to come up with something that would fit me and my risk tolerance. but it's just me.
if swinging, no difference between stock indexes, CL, gold or FX or even individual stocks. Of course one cant produce perfectly smooth upward moving equity curve, like with scalping edges
Quote from Bob111:
give me same ability to place a subpenny orders and see those subpenny quotes in my platform(not 2 numbers after a decimal point as we have right now)and if i still unable to make a profit off it-then you can call me a loser.
Exchanges allow everyone to send orders half way between the bid/ask. In a 1 penny spread stock, that is 3 decimal places. If you cannot send those type of orders I'd talk to whoever you trade through or whoever develops the platform.
The trades going off at even smaller increments are mainly from internalizers. Don't blame HFT firms for that. You may want to look at whoever you trade through if they sell their flow, or internalize themselves.
Quote from Rearden Metal:
<i>"HFT is just another market participant... HFT is just another excuse for you losers to whine... blah blah blah..."</i>
---->Never mind any of us individually for a moment, just look at what has become of the entire leveraged equities prop trading industry!
Echo used to have a Chicago office with over a dozen traders at that location. Last time I stopped by there almost two years ago, every single guy was gone except for the branch manager- who was in the process of folding up shop and shutting it all down. How are things at Bright these days? I'm sure it can't be much different there either, but please correct me if I'm wrong. If HFT isn't the root cause of the prop equities short-term manual/black-box API/grey-box API trading industry falling off a cliff in recent years, go ahead and explain to me what the 'real reason' happens to be.
Well, don't all answer me at once! Anyone? Bueller?
Quote from RedDuke:
Forex, aka virtual market, on retail level is one of the worst. Futures are the best bet for day trading.
Do not do forex (but do trade Euro/Yen futures). Agree forex is a joke for pikers like all of us. Agree futures, especially ES is best for day trading. WHY?
Well, years ago, stock trading was the only game in town for pikers like us. Futures and charting was "VOODOO" and surely a sure way to lose the grocery money. Stocks are not as easy to trade for many reasons previously stated. HOW IRONIC, NOW futures are the way to travel, a flip-flop for sure.
Futures are no longer a "CLUB" to rip off the public as the phone rings at the exchange desk, now the public has on his/her desk while sitting in Podunk high speed order entry/exit platform to compete with the best in the world. (app based platform outperforms web based garbage)
One thing has not changed and WILL NOT change while everyone walking on the planet now remains breathing........SKILL determines who will win and lose, nothing else.
I never give HFT a thought while playing my game, the same as they never worry about me. The only ones that make a difference are the following.....ME, MYSELF and ISH!
Trade well if you dare.
PS: A suggestion about futures..ES, 6E, 6J and CL = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mftz4gY7okk
Quote from Rearden Metal:
<i>"HFT is just another market participant... HFT is just another excuse for you losers to whine... blah blah blah..."</i>
---->Never mind any of us individually for a moment, just look at what has become of the entire leveraged equities prop trading industry!
Echo used to have a Chicago office with over a dozen traders at that location. Last time I stopped by there almost two years ago, every single guy was gone except for the branch manager- who was in the process of folding up shop and shutting it all down. How are things at Bright these days? I'm sure it can't be much different there either, but please correct me if I'm wrong. If HFT isn't the root cause of the prop equities short-term manual/black-box API/grey-box API trading industry falling off a cliff in recent years, go ahead and explain to me what the 'real reason' happens to be.
"HFT is just another market participant..." was my quote and in theory I believe this is true.
I respect you as I have followed your posts over many years, and do not debate that HFT has been caused major disruptions to the prop equities industry.
HFT is just another excuse for you losers to whine... blah blah blah. (this you added)
I was not suggesting that anyone is a loser who complains about HFT. I only suggest that perhaps methodologies, tactics, and trading styles may adjust to compete with them. The increased use of more complex algorithms and quantitative techniques have led to more competition and smaller profits than the days when SOES bandits were gaming the system on a monitor that could sink a small canoe.
Schonfeld has openly stated that the days of guys coming to the office grinding out 75k a year are over. The days of ping pong at Heartland Securities are long over, and the landscape has certainly changed, and this I do not debate.
If one wisely programmed system can replace a whole trading floor the guys who run these firms will certainly opt for the lower overhead. Computers don't need a water cooler, coffee, or ping pong tables.
Many exchanges, and platforms have merged over the years and more instruments are available to trade for traders than ever before. I believe that opportunity remains and while old trading floors and business models may have been crushed by HFT's that the soul, spirit, and resolve of traders to successfully find new edges still exist even against the obstacle that HFT pose.
There is a poster here emg that is quite convinced that these HFT's are the death knoll of smaller traders and to this I disagree.
I'm most likely a bit older than him and I'm sure there is a whole new crop of traders who read and comb over these posts trying to gather as much knowledge as they can from what this board has to offer. In my opinion they should not be discouraged with this level of negativity and be discouraged by HFT's.
Perhaps 15 years from now traders will only be electronic robotic programmers, but there is still room for humans and more manual styles of trading in my opinion. (i have programmed algo's in a team environment)
Smaller traders have always had a disadvantage, and today is no different. But small traders should not be discouraged to trade because of the existence of HFT operations.
Old business models may die and so may some traders.....but new models will arrive and so will new traders.....even in the world of
HFT's vs Small Traders they won't run away with all the money....alot perhaps...but not all of it....
Ok, now I think we're more or less on the same page here. Notice that I never said HFT ended my career as a trader... it didn't! However, HFT has been the most challenging disruption of all, and has in fact knocked me out of the short-term leveraged equities trading game, along with many others.
Is it impossible to adapt/find other ways to trade for a living? Of course not! But HFT did in fact take something away from me and many other equities traders, and some people seem to refuse to even acknowledge this.
Is it impossible to adapt/find other ways to trade for a living? Of course not! But HFT did in fact take something away from me and many other equities traders, and some people seem to refuse to even acknowledge this.
I believe in the future humans can be fully replaced, and all the retail traders especially those with small account will be washed out, there will be only the computer traders with big account trading with each other...Quote from Rearden Metal:
Ok, now I think we're more or less on the same page here. Notice that I never said HFT ended my career as a trader... it didn't! However, HFT has been the most challenging disruption of all, and has in fact knocked me out of the short-term leveraged equities trading game, along with many others.
Is it impossible to adapt/find other ways to trade for a living? Of course not! But HFT did in fact take something away from me and many other equities traders, and some people seem to refuse to even acknowledge this.