hey HFT scum, yeah, you. Watch this

[brownegg]

Now that I've read the commentary you posted, I'm wowed anew by your inability to read and comprehend the views of others. One of the first posts I made earlier in the thread named the lack of liquidity providing requirements as an issue very important re: 5/6/10, as the market clearly had "grown accustomed to" HFT activity.

Then you trot out someone else saying it as some sort of counterexample to what I and others (the "pipsqueaks") have posted.

I have to agree with WinstonTJ here--ET mods are doing the community a disservice by not banning you.

 

[WinstonTJ]

Quote from stock777:

Winston wants me banned because I keep the pressure on.

I'll go away the same day the hft colocated frontrunning microarb fake size botnets go away.

Hold your breath.


PS If the ONLY crime was the colocation, that would be bad enough. That the exchanges sanction and bless it means diddly.

I don't want you banned I just want you to stop trolling ET with false information. I've asked you a lot of things in this thread and you have not yet answered a single one. To me (and I'm sure to others) that is very telling.

What is your issue with colocation? Could you please explain the 'crime' in rack space at a datacenter? Why do you keep mis-labeling HFT and why do you insist that all HFT strategies front-run? Even if I did have true HFT boxes I litterally could not front run, its impossible because I don't have order flow. Don't you get it - you need something to be in front of to front run. That leaves very few major Prime Brokers and big I-Banks that receive order flow large enough to try to build in algos to WIWV or trade at VWAP, etc., neither of which would be frontrunning.

You have yet to acknowledge Internalization - do you understand that concept vs. program trading without order flow?

 

[Bob111]

Quote from brownegg:

1. If you have a mouse in your hand, you are TOO SLOW. Learn to deal with it, it's not changing.

2. NO exchange will allow for participants to aggress / take liquidity ahead of another order that does so first.

3. NO exchange will allow ANY participant to "pull their order" when a matching one is presented. Nor can the resting order choose to only execute some and delete/pull the rest.

If you don't believe, go to the exchange websites and download the rule books. These are publicly traded, heavily regulated and seriously scrutinized companies we're talking about, not a card game in Chinatown. Much like Las Vegas, legit businesses don't have to cheat or bend the rules: doing things above the table is lucrative enough that it's not worth risking.

Look, what you described is frustrating. It happens to everyone, including me. But that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the system or the rules as they exist. By the time that order can be seen on a screen and "clicked", probably 500ms has gone by. And that's if your delivery is good and you're ridiculously fast with your mouse. Likely it's far longer than that. In a world where 200 orders / second is possible with $2k/mo of leased software, why would you even expect you could get filled in the first place?

I'm not saying there's not shady elements of the markets--but there are shady elements in shipping, utilities, construction, real estate, government, education, and everything else you can think of.

I've watched 99% of the guys who used to make $200-300k a year on the floor take jobs as salesmen, mortgage brokers, financial planners, etc., because once they weren't handed vig on a silver platter they became extinct. Sorry to be harsh, but the same is mostly true for the solo daytrader, and it will only get worse. That's how capitalism works.

Adapt or perish. I did it, and others did it. Decide if you're going to do it. Just don't whine about it or blame anyone other than yourself.

ok,i got your point of view..but..can anyone explain to me,why do we need so many market centers? right now, in US we have over 50 different exchanges,ECN's..whatever..we have national exchanges,international exchanges,,there is fucking exchange in pretty much every US city...yes, they all have rules,regulations.. blah blah blah..but they also trade exactly same stocks,that are traded at NYSE and NASDAQ. that's it..there is no unique products on those national and international exchanges..why do we need all this mess? why it's so hard for regulators to SIMPLIFY this shit?

 

[brownegg]

Quote from Bob111:

ok,i got your point of view..but..can anyone explain to me,why do we need so many market centers? right now, in US we have over 50 different exchanges,ECN's..whatever..we have national exchanges,international exchanges,,there is fucking exchange in pretty much every US city...yes, they all have rules,regulations.. blah blah blah..but they also trade exactly same stocks,that are traded at NYSE and NASDAQ. that's it..there is no unique products on those national and international exchanges..why do we need all this mess? why it's so hard for regulators to SIMPLIFY this shit?

That's actually an interesting question, but it comes down to this: while it's easy to think of "the market" as a single entity, it's not; anyone could apply to open an exchange. It's a private business like any other (though the regulation is obviously industry-specific).

Think of it like there used to be one Ma Bell / phone company. Now we have an unholy mess and a couple dozen shitty providers instead of just one.

But if you think about it, unless you have the tech and desire to game the venues against each other, as an end user you can get 99% of what you need from ARCA/NAS/BATS. And Reg NMS will really take care of the other 1%.

Playing execution games is stupid, I admit. But there's money to be made, so I do it. If it becomes impossible, I'll do something else. I suspect others feel the same.

 

[ammo]

brown, do you agree that the lack of regulation for the faster vs slower info, and the selling of shows for all bids and offers, even those away from the market will eventually wipe out all public confidence and erode the market into a no ones playing any more and the game is over scenario

 

[stock777]

I have answered all the questions put to me by the posers and shills multiple times.

Selective deafness is a terrible thing.


There has never been an abuser of any market that didn't defend their position until the death. Sort of like child molesters.

How about it egg, Winston? Ring a bell?

 

[Algo_Design_Kid]

Quote from ammo:

brown, do you agree that the lack of regulation for the faster vs slower info, and the selling of shows for all bids and offers, even those away from the market will eventually wipe out all public confidence and erode the market into a no ones playing any more and the game is over scenario

I know you weren't talking to me but..

IMO it is much more advantageous to the long term investor getting into this market, at least compared to "x" amount of years ago.

I suppose theoretically the more (real) competition the lower the cost for x+1..x+2 shares -> x+1000..

What is the alternative? Putting it into that high yielding savings account at Wells? I'd rather just get kicked in the face than loan those assholes my (small, very small) bankroll at wholesale.

 

[stock777]

lol, you think paying 40.23 vs 40.25 is a big advantage to a long term investor.

they told me the new math would create a problem for students.

 

[Algo_Design_Kid]

Quote from stock777:

lol, you think paying 40.23 vs 40.25 is a big advantage to a long term investor.

they told me the new math would create a problem for students.

Really?

2 cents?

If we go back 1 full decade to 2000, depending on your strategy at the time you would be paying more than 2 cent spread difference. It is my hypothesis, every year back after that (2000 - 1, 2000-2...) would be greatly adding to the cost.

At the time, although it was through my father, he called the stockbroker and the broker called my dad back with the price he got it at. And it was always the "best" deal . It wasn't that long ago when I was still in middle school / high school where I got a whiff of the end of the tech bubble just long enough to get my newb ass handed to me.

There is absolutely no doubt the increased competitionin the market (plus obvious technology) has vastly lowered the cost of someone getting in and out of IBM at 1000++ shares. Even the next highschool kid that catches the new "fad" bubble such as I like Sonic Foundry just long enough to face plant will hand over fist get much better execution on his 100 shares than I did 11-12 (lost count) years ago.

Get real. That isn't even in the same ballpark as getting 4 digits of accumulation + + in any modestly traded equity.

 

[brownegg]

Quote from ammo:

brown, do you agree that the lack of regulation for the faster vs slower info, and the selling of shows for all bids and offers, even those away from the market will eventually wipe out all public confidence and erode the market into a no ones playing any more and the game is over scenario

There isn't slower or faster info, or at least not any more than there ever was. Guys in the pit had info before anyone else, guys with DMA connections get it faster than vendored/coalesced. Guys with vendor feeds get it faster than people who hit refresh on a 15-min delayed web chart. There isn't anything offered that isn't offered to everyone, with the exception of some structural stuff with respect being designated as a liq provider or MM.

I think the sale of order flow and internalization should both be abolished altogether, irrevocably and without exception.

To say that no one is going to play anymore is just hyperbole. Do I think people are starting to see the market as rigged? Unfortunately yes, but that doesn't mean the baby should be thrown out with the bathwater.

1. Get rid of internalization.
2. Get rid of dark pools.
3. Get rid of payment for order flow and directed orders.
4. Make sure that the only structural advantages available are due to balance sheet and liquidity commitments.
5. Require every registered exchange to implement a standardized set of volatility controls and order price bands.

From there, it's open season for everybody.