hey HFT scum, yeah, you. Watch this

we will see. I rather take profit on this bounce prematurely because I have a very bearish view. I think this is the environment where you take your profits and run as fast as you can. Nothing like sine March 2009 with stable and low volatility returns.

I made almost 50k on this trade for my personal account with very favorable risk/reward ratio, exactly the trade I am after. I am not in the business of flipping coins or trying to read the future. If I had to make a decision to trade at this point (at 1097) I would not put on a trade on the long side. Enough reason for me to get out. If we break 1006 later this Friday or next week I may get back in because the market would show more strength than I anticipated but for now I am convinced I made the right call.

Quote from stock777:

Yes, that was premature ESulation.
 
you are also quite winding on definitions.

What I disagree with you is your point on "minority" in the bottom section. First of all huge volume is done by HFT as a percentage of total trading volume, large enough to make a material impact.

Secondly, the opposite has happened from what you claim: With HFT and darkpools has come LESS transparency in the market. I give it to you that prices have become less arbitragable but the market has for sure not become more transparent and clear. I dont know how you support your claim but its pretty apparent to me that the very definition of dark pools is to conceal transactions to the market place as a whole, how can this be more transparent.

What we need is a market place where all trades are known to all parties in listed securities. I can almost foresee what is gonna happen if things dont change. There will come a new exchange which offers total transparency in trade transactions and companies will be fed up to deal with the status quo and move to a system which allows their shares to be exchanged between risk takers in an equitable and fair manner by cutting out a lot of "middle men". That is certainly not in the interest of some parties but for sure in the interest of those who really move markets, which is real-money funds, pension funds, large foreign investors.

Hedge funds obviously have an interest to obfuscate their activities and Wall Street does, too, but I think the pendulum is currently swinging towards more regulation than less which will give power to those who are in favor of more transparency in the market. Either Congress, SEC, and regulators get their act together to clean up the current exchanges or a new exchange will emerge to take care of it, one way or the other the days of dark pools and funny ways to front run people through the HFT costumes are counted...


Quote from propseeker:

there are a lot of misconceptions in this thread, but the major one i see getting thrown around is that lack of transparency is the fault of hft's who through the use of 'hft tools', namely darkpools, obfuscate liquidity/activity.

so, to clarify, a little history... darkpools came into existence at the behest of the buyside, ie the large institutions that mange investor capital: pension funds, mutual funds, endowment funds, etc, and these are the primary users of these pools. it was THESE institutions that demanded obfuscation and transparency reduction so that the large price impact in moving orders through the public markets could be reduced. in response to this demand, agency-only brokers (ones with no proprietary flow, ie commission-centric) created products which would allow for institutional traders to find other institutional liquidity outside of the public markets in an anonymous and low information leakage venue. examples of these initial products which make-up the bulk of darkpool volume even today are liquidnet, posit, pipeline, instinet cbx, nyfix millenium, and blockalert. many MANY more have spawned, but those are the most widely used and known.

hft's participation in this space is a combination of market making and arbitrage against this institutional flow. the same that would occur in the public markets if this flow were routed there. in addition, hft's make markets against this flow and the public markets, aligning prices based on what they're able to pick up from these pools.

in the past, all short term traders, in one form or another, were able to trade against or with this flow. however, due to the large transition of this flow to dark pools (30-50% by some estimates), and due to its inherent complexity and now its great numbers (upwards of 50 different pools), the only ones who have been efficiently able to capitalize on it are a pretty sophisticated segment of hft's. the boon in this segment, profit-wise, is largely due to the low amounts of competition previously found in these pools. however, as they become more widely known, competition increases and imo has become quite the crowded trade.

what these facts point to though, is that it becomes apparent that the backlash against hft's can find its source in the buyside (the largest and most powerful market segment as a group). while some hft's may be well capitalized, some may be highly technical, or others exceedingly clever. what they all are for sure, is the minority. and that's very important to keep in mind, because what they essentially have been doing, through arbitrage, is bringing transparency to a market which has none. this reduction of transparency, makes them the enemy of the buyside, and the lobbying for regulation and negative propaganda of these traders find its source here.

it's up to everyone to decide whether it's worth their time to point fingers or not. so if you have decided its worth your time, just make sure you point it at the right people.
 
Quote from asiaprop:

[...]

Secondly, the opposite has happened from what you claim: With HFT and darkpools has come LESS transparency in the market. I give it to you that prices have become less arbitragable but the market has for sure not become more transparent and clear. I dont know how you support your claim but its pretty apparent to me that the very definition of dark pools is to conceal transactions to the market place as a whole, how can this be more transparent.
If I understand correctly, propseeker's argument is not that dark pools are making the market more transparent and clear, but that it was dark pools that began the market away from transparency and clarity--that was the point--and this at the behest of the buy side. HFT then came in and started arbitraging the pools against transparent markets, aligning prices, as propseeker put it.

What we need is a market place where all trades are known to all parties in listed securities. I can almost foresee what is gonna happen if things dont change. There will come a new exchange which offers total transparency in trade transactions and companies will be fed up to deal with the status quo and move to a system which allows their shares to be exchanged between risk takers in an equitable and fair manner by cutting out a lot of "middle men". That is certainly not in the interest of some parties but for sure in the interest of those who really move markets, which is real-money funds, pension funds, large foreign investors.
How plausible is this scenario: dark pools and other ATS become disconnected from the "markets" that you and I know. Basically, the exchanges enact what you described, forcing all trades to be known to all parties in listed securities. The dark pools/ATS continue as separate, unlinked trading venues, and people who would also like to be listed there can do so. Separate exchanges, in effect.
 
How can it be possible that "they" don't know what exactly happened!?!?

Is not each and every trade traceable?(TOS review)

If so, how is HFT to blame if nobody "seems" to know what exactly happened?
 
in the 80's all the large currrency transactions were done at banks,lets say GE bought a few jet engines from rolls royce,the currency would be exchanged thru the two companies and their banks,the large stock transactions were handked by large firms and they would somrtimes arrange a cross ,but it always went across the tape,when the banks and clearing houses became one, they lobbied to allow the dark pools to operate in the same manner as the just mentioned currency swaps,that wasn't fine,it was criminal,the the very nature of the word market to me means open to the public, not closed to the top 1 or 2% of the capital,its an unfair dishonest criminal action. Then there are the off shore hedge funds and multiple nearly undefineable products,also unfair,dishonest and a huge scheme by banks to take peoples monies. Since we can't touch these 1 or 2%,they have offered us the hft's as a sacrifice, much like they offered up the subprime borrowers 18 months back. The problem is they also have all the information from the electronic clearing that 15 years ago would have been impossible to compile quickly enough to be useful, at there fingertips, 24/7, they are able to guage when the market is oversold or overbought and know when to reverse and collect the most dough ,on top of that they front run your order by a penny or two so that when you do get out for a loss on multiple contracts at different prices ,it's larger ,you have to chase. The whole notion of insider trading is no longer a notion ,it's become an institution, and if you are an HFT,you are forced to buy this insider info just to compete in this arena, so william jennings and others who think they are providing liquidity are willingly getting sucked into this institution, and the larger it gets, the longer it will take to dismantle, in the meantime we will have days like may 6, a lot of them , and there wont be any players left, they will basically kill the golden goose greed is power and it needs to be regulated or it takes on a will of its own
 
Quote from walterjennings:

Funny. Floor traders said the same thing about you ankle biting desk traders ;) Computer assisted trading made the markets too fast for them to keep up and they whined to high heaven about the death of the pits.

Bullsht. You as any specialist back in the day, they told everyone daytraders PROVIDED liquidity. Something HFT does not do no matter how much they pretend.

There is a thin layer of liquidity on this market which is exploited by HFTs and once they sapped that crust the market plummeted .

HFT can never hold the argument that they provide liquidity again after that fiasco. They are just a burden on the market and there are enough of them now to kill this market entirely.
 
Quote from MoreYummy:

Actually let HFT show us how illiquid the market will be without them, i dont see anything different 15 years ago and now on spread.

Once HFTs disappear you will see real liquidity begin to build in the markets, and real price action take over. Right now the market is a joke as the 1k point drop showed.
 
Quote from stock777:

The counter arguments are too inane to respond to. So I won't.


And dude, supercomputer was hyperbole, I'm well aware that off the shelf servers are more than enough to pillage and steal 24/7.

The edge is 99% location. You know this perfectly well.

FK that other guy . What you are saying is correct.

No , they dont have custom made computers, but they do have high end equipement, and the best HFT firms have temperature controlled room after room filled with server on top of servers the size of a football field.

All with one purpose in mind. Front run and sap the money out of these markets, out of the pockets of real investors.
 
then I clearly misunderstood his post and apologize. That was not clear to me from his post. I guess we agree then on that point.

Quote from 314:

If I understand correctly, propseeker's argument is not that dark pools are making the market more transparent and clear, but that it was dark pools that began the market away from transparency and clarity--that was the point--and this at the behest of the buy side. HFT then came in and started arbitraging the pools against transparent markets, aligning prices, as propseeker put it.


How plausible is this scenario: dark pools and other ATS become disconnected from the "markets" that you and I know. Basically, the exchanges enact what you described, forcing all trades to be known to all parties in listed securities. The dark pools/ATS continue as separate, unlinked trading venues, and people who would also like to be listed there can do so. Separate exchanges, in effect.
 
Quote from Nofear777:

Bullsht. You as any specialist back in the day, they told everyone daytraders PROVIDED liquidity. Something HFT does not do no matter how much they pretend.

There is a thin layer of liquidity on this market which is exploited by HFTs and once they sapped that crust the market plummeted .

HFT can never hold the argument that they provide liquidity again after that fiasco. They are just a burden on the market and there are enough of them now to kill this market entirely.
This is true. Scalping high frequency is harder and harder unless you can compete with a microsend algo. Swing trading still works because you just wait for the algos to reverse but having said that even swing trading is tight at times cause your target comes and goes so fast that the cushion of trade positioning is gone so fast that the pattern recognition aspect of trade is compressed. I watched in awe the other day as a buy program juiced by the algos hit so hard and fast that it literally never hit my machine with even enough clarity to trade. My machine froze and the dom blurred and it was off and running.
 
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