hey HFT scum, yeah, you. Watch this

[asiaprop]

LOL, and I never said you do HFT, which you REALLY DONT!!! You got hooked to the siren of the ECNs telling you that you do GOD's work to "add liquidity" in exchange for a rebate. But please dont make your job sound cooler than it is because it really isnt.

But let us inquire from the OP what he intended to mean with HFT. I just have my doubt we are discussing some CS grads who sit at home collecting rebates.

Quote from walterjennings:

Again accusing me of front running. As I had stated before if you have the ability to read. None of my systems have prior knowledge of any orders which arrive at the exchange after mine. Time to take off that tin foil hat and get educated.

 

[walterjennings]

Quote from asiaprop:

buddy you utterly fail to comprehend this business. Would HFT not be able to sub penny and glimpse at orders coming into the market the track record would look ENTIRELY DIFFERENT. Most HFT would not even exist, my guess is to the tune of 70-80% would go under. Some retail dude with a self-coded .Net engine to "ADD LIQUIDITY" (as your friend so nicely defined it) really does not qualify as HFT in the broader sense.

You need to stop using the term HFT when you are complaining about SPECIFIC market participants who have the ability to front run. Which I don't think actually exist, I have no clue how someone would glimpse orders coming into the market, and if they are doing it, they participating in insider trading and should be thrown in jail.

The fact is there are lots of us who trade 'high frequency trading' systems who are not doing anything illegal. Not front running, not glimpsing at orders coming into the market. (Though trading sub penny is just good for everyone). Again, you need to stop using the term HFT and start saying 'specific automated systems which participate in illegal activities'.

 

[tripledtrader]

With regards to co-location, yes co-location is becoming more affordable, but let's be honest, the system will eventually look something like this:

Room A is the VIP access, If you pay for Room A today the only thing that separates your computer from the server is a few inches of a cooling fan. Room A is quite expensive though, so if you're not a nine figure kind of trader or broker dealer you may be more suited to Room B. Welcome to Room B. Room B is for those 8 figure traders and broker dealers. By the time you get to your average investors we are in Room S for sucker. All of these tiers can see and react to lower tier incoming orders and take the most profitable action which results in the most loss for the average investor.

However, I really don't see how we can fight co-location, as even if the Commission banned co-location, the property directly around the exchange would simply become the new co-location areas (this is already happening). And I don't think it's the major issue in our market structure anyways. The major issue is sub-pennying and quote matching via broker-dealer internalization.

 

[walterjennings]

Quote from asiaprop:
LOL, and I never said you do HFT, which you REALLY DONT!!!

Quote from asiaprop:
What else does he have, programming skills and money to pay for the privilege to front run others. Am I surprised?

You sir, are a disingenuous debater.

 

[asiaprop]

fair points and yes I dont think the issue of co-location can be removed. But what can be fought and removed are all the other "perks" that come with paying ECNs basically for nothing else than access to ORDER FLOW. That should be outlawed and it would put most of the HFT firms out of business in an instant.

Quote from tripledtrader:

With regards to co-location, yes co-location is becoming more affordable, but let's be honest, the system will eventually look something like this:

Room A is the VIP access, If you pay for Room A today the only thing that separates your computer from the server is a few inches of a cooling fan. Room A is quite expensive though, so if you're not a nine figure kind of trader or broker dealer you may be more suited to Room B. Welcome to Room B. Room B is for those 8 figure traders and broker dealers. By the time you get to your average investors we are in Room S for sucker. All of these tiers can see and react to lower tier incoming orders and take the most profitable action which results in the most loss for the average investor.

However, I really don't see how we can fight co-location, as even if the Commission banned co-location, the property directly around the exchange would simply become the new co-location areas (this is already happening). And I don't think it's the major issue in our market structure anyways. The major issue is sub-pennying and quote matching via broker-dealer internalization.

 

[walterjennings]

Quote from asiaprop:

I dont want to disappoint you but except that it sounds cool on your resume to call yourself a HFT trader you are doing nothing but collecting rebates, which maybe qualifies you for a coding job but is anything but trading. I dont think this is the topic under discussion and I never had a problem with that. I have a problem with the tools that are given in the hands of HFT outlets but nobody else although everyone is promised a fair and equitable market place. Simple as that. If you just collect rebates then relax, buddy, you are in the wrong thread you can chill and check out.

I am starting to believe you are too stupid to understand what the acronym HFT stands for You are the one who is mistakenly using a term to describe a very specific group which actually describes a much larger group.

And to enlighten you a little. A large number of sub second trading systems (HFT) use collecting rebates as a component of their trading systems.

 

[tgtrader]

Quote from asiaprop:

Some retail dude with a self-coded .Net engine to "ADD LIQUIDITY" (as your friend so nicely defined it) really does not qualify as HFT in the broader sense.

Hey, buddy, stop twisting the definition of HFT to your liking. HFT is EXACTLY what it stands for... HIGH FREQUENCY TRADING. That does not mean that, as someone running a HFT program, you need to (1) Have information unavailable to others (retail orders BEFORE they hit the market) and/or (2) Front-run that order flow or be able to leapfrog to the top of the order book.

I agree that Flash orders were unfair, for that option was only available to large firms. However, that type of trading does not represent all of HFT. You can't assume the most extreme case is representative of all cases, and thereby dismiss any other strategy that IS a HFT one. Using your logic, if someone played baseball and also said they didn't use steroids... you'd tell them they don't play baseball.

 

[tripledtrader]

Quote from asiaprop:

fair points and yes I dont think the issue of co-location can be removed. But what can be fought and removed are all the other "perks" that come with paying ECNs basically for nothing else than access to ORDER FLOW. That should be outlawed and it would put most of the HFT firms out of business in an instant.

I agree payment for order flow is a major problem in our market. It allows firms with no client base to internalize orders (that's all the sub-penny prints you are seeing). Basically no uninformed retail order flow gets to the exchange anymore.

 

[asiaprop]

yes and thats exactly what you described you are doing, you engage in sub second trading but not what the SEC, congress, wall street, and others understand when the term HFT is mentioned. What most, including me understand is the inclusion of all the tools that come with HFT that others dont have at their disposal and that is the reason for the huge discontent. Nobody, me included, would bitch about some guys who love to trade in and out in nanoseconds if they had the same information I have. But they dont. Do you still not see the problems or do you much rather engage in long discussions on how to define HFT?

Quote from walterjennings:

I am starting to believe you are too stupid to understand what the acronym HFT stands for You are the one who is mistakenly using a term to describe a very specific group which actually describes a much larger group.

And to enlighten you a little. A large number of sub second trading systems (HFT) use collecting rebates as a component of their trading systems.

 

[asiaprop]

ok, go back to the first post, watch the video, or read the related text and then you tell me which parties are addressed, those who engage in HFT and using information and practices that are not available to others? Are they discussing the firms that are under debate right now and the practices they engage in? Or is this thread about some guys who move their orders back and forth to collect a rebate? Maybe you want to be honest to yourself for a second and re-assess what this thread PLUS the video link was actually about.

Quote from tgtrader:

Hey, buddy, stop twisting the definition of HFT to your liking. HFT is EXACTLY what it stands for... HIGH FREQUENCY TRADING. That does not mean that, as someone running a HFT program, you need to (1) Have information unavailable to others (retail orders BEFORE they hit the market) and/or (2) Front-run that order flow or be able to leapfrog to the top of the order book.

I agree that Flash orders were unfair, for that option was only available to large firms. However, that type of trading does not represent all of HFT. You can't assume the most extreme case is representative of all cases, and thereby dismiss any other strategy that IS a HFT one. Using your logic, if someone played baseball and also said they didn't use steroids... you'd tell them they don't play baseball.