hey guys from traitor

T

traitor786

hi I dont know much about prop firms besides the fact they many seem to say they are scams that take on no risk , and focus on fees as a main source of income.
Though it has been said that 1% do make money that makes me think that there is some hope i have heard it said that 1% of day traders make it.

Regardless of this, I have come to a point that i want to invest.

I have not seen any one on this site yet focus on my way of seeing the markets.

Now I am don't want to go ahead and dump a bunch of money in the markets to start off.

Leverage is not a option im considering, Options I do not know enough about but understand that as soon as i buy i am at a lose and have t make up that money (trigger or target )

My preference is netflix as i have done so many trades, but buying a couple of shares of netflix wont even cover 9.99 trade fees,

Im considering using an a prop firm and was wondering if some one could give me there opinion. I would like to start at one that allows me to work at home. I am from Canada Montreal. I have come along MGB Trading in Canada.

Any advice, i couldn't find people that used them on this site i think they may be with wts as mentioned somewhere.

they are askin me to wire them money there address and names are not given and it seems they try to keep it hidden though a simple search of company name should show it,


is this normal with prop firms to just send a wire out blindly?
any advice on prop firm trading or mgb secifiacally ?

thanks any help would be appreciated,

i know there are benefits working at an office but right now i just want to get my feet wet and see where it goes, 1000$ is an amount im willing to blow to see if im a rockstar trader

as far as fees goes, my stratagy involves quick buys and sells. when i am wrong i sell right away within a few bars if im right which i believe i am more often i hold till my target , this has been profitable on paper trading,

again hank you for any help
 
Respectable prop firms don't ask for a deposit. Idk if these exist in Canada but they do so in NY and throughout the US. I used to trade prop at a firm where I even received a small draw to cover monthly expenses (PM me for info).

If you're depositing money your likely just opening up a super leveraged brokerage account. Since you don't want leverage consider just opening an Interactive Brokers/Scottrade account. You could trade from home in your boxers.

Papertrading = largely worthless

Your strategy of quick buying/selling, whatever the plan is, will result in a lot of noise trading (giving commissions to your "prop" company). Quick trading is dominated by algos and you have no edge on them whatsoever.

If you want to invest, I highly recommend investing in your education. Toronto is a major financial city and if you have the right skills then maybe you can work as a trading assistant for an investment bank or some other financial institution. Study basics of economics, finance, computer programming (JAVA, C++), asset modeling on Excel and even some psychology (how ppl make decisions + behavioral finance). Go to a job site, find your ideal position, and review the skills necessary for that job.

Prop trading in a discretionary manner in such an efficient market as equities or index/commodity futures is largely a dinosaur's game.

I apologize if it's sobering advice.
 
Quote from traitor786:

also i just saw an add for don bright. At least he is known on the site which is a big plus compared to mgb.
More...

Trading, more than ever before, is a business...not a "job" or a "birthright" - firms no longer can afford to pay someone to risk their capital for them (the old "prop" model)... they simply use algo's etc. Since the 1980's, my brother and I understood this business model for traders.. and we spent much of our lives engaged in it. If you have the time, talent, and education, you can certainly start a trading business of your own. By joining a professional firm, vs the "masses" who attempt this in a retail fashion, you can at least have access to enough capital to compete. Much like my hometown of Las Vegas, the people standing in line at a slot machine or video poker machine have little chance of success vs. the professional poker players or blackjack card counters.

If anyone is serious about trading for a living, I simply suggest that they associate themselves with a group of other traders.... try to hone skills based on their own potential, not try to mimick others, but to combine skill sets to work within the current marketplace. Adapt, adapt, adapt... we were told that the "game was over" back in the 1970's in Blackjack, yet the MIT team friends did not even come to Vegas for a couple of decades.... we were told the "game was over" again in the markets when the banks got involved...well, that was many $millions ago.... there are always those who assume because they have not been successful, that it "must be the game, which is over" -

Trading is difficult, as is/was card counting...and poker... just like any other business... some will make it, many won't... but at least those who do make it have a enough sense to give themselves the proper tools, capitalization, collaboration, and interaction to give themselves a fighting chance. Some choose to go into business for themselves, some choose to simply work for someone else.... either is fine and good, no judgement needed...

So, please everyone, if you're going to get involved in trading, treat it like any other business venture.. do your homework... [

All the best,

Don
 
Quote from Don Bright:

Trading, more than ever before, is a business...not a "job" or a "birthright" - firms no longer can afford to pay someone to risk their capital for them (the old "prop" model)... they simply use algo's etc.
More...

This is simply not true.

Look up a firm such as First NY Securities. Even at IBs there still remain prop traders that are not fully automated. If you were to work as a trader/portfolio manager for a hedge fund you'd essentially be a "prop trader" with possibly a longer-term horizon. Look up trading gigs on indeed.com... many of the prop ones are located in Chicago (usually options trading).

If you deposit your own capital then you're essentially opening a brokerage account. Companies such as Bright just offer you a lot of leverage... you don't work for them, they work for you. It's not much different then a Scott-Trade account.

Discretionary trading equities is largely a sucker's game... that's why the real prop traders have ventured into other asset classes or equities derivatives. And yes, it is becoming increasingly quantitative because the guys that trade on instinct have almost no edge whatsoever.
 
I know FNYS, heck, the owner's son spent a Summer here a couple of years ago as our Intern... I respect what they do... and, I have recommended them several times. But, facts are facts, they hire a handful of traders each year... and do a great job ... but they are the exception to the wave of what is happening over the last decade. As far as hedge funds go, well hardly "discretionary" for the individual trader.

A "no deposit" firm keeps a large percenatage...so, if you do well, you have a large "deposit" up in a a month or two anyway... a "depsoit" that you never get back. A successful trader would never want to give away $200K each year in lieu uf putting up some money. Some "may" but that is why I feel trading is a business. The deposit money is not wasted on some "franchise" or anything.... the $20k or so is still yours. Yet you have all the benefits of a professional firm.

Not a big deal overall.... I've always maintained that discretionary trading is not for everyone....

Some may want to read this, as short explanation of what is available:

http://www.stocktrading.com/startingtotrade.html

All the best....

Don

Quote from atlTrader666:

This is simply not true.

Look up a firm such as First NY Securities. Even at IBs there still remain prop traders that are not fully automated. If you were to work as a trader/portfolio manager for a hedge fund you'd essentially be a "prop trader" with possibly a longer-term horizon. Look up trading gigs on indeed.com... many of the prop ones are located in Chicago (usually options trading).

If you deposit your own capital then you're essentially opening a brokerage account. Companies such as Bright just offer you a lot of leverage... you don't work for them, they work for you. It's not much different then a Scott-Trade account.

Discretionary trading equities is largely a sucker's game... that's why the real prop traders have ventured into other asset classes or equities derivatives. And yes, it is becoming increasingly quantitative because the guys that trade on instinct have almost no edge whatsoever.
More...
 
I'm not trying to attack your company, it is what it is. I'm just trying to give him some information and advice especially because he has another thread where he mentions he wants to join a firm with little/no deposit... he's also aware of the small % of success rates.

Just to elaborate on Bright and similar firms, they are brokers... hence on your own link it says:

"Professional trading firms
Disclosure: Bright Trading falls into this category (there are other such firms, of course). Professional trading firms follow what is often called the “stock exchange floor trader” business model. These firms are designed for those who want to get into the business of trading for a living. These firms are broker–dealer exchange members that require basic licensing of their traders."

For a newer trader he must realize that all he is doing in opening a brokerage account. The term prop trading is subjective, but here are your own words:

"“True prop” trading firms
“True prop” refers to firms that either hire traders or allow traders to come in with no capital. There are excellent firms that will hire graduates from top schools, train them, and pay them a salary, but such firms are getting fewer and fewer in number. There are, however, several excellent firms in Chicago and New York. To join them, you’ll go through a screening process, and you’ll be expected to work your way up. Hedge funds also fall into this category. It’s a stringent application process, but well worth it if you can align yourself with a solid firm. The same caveats apply, however, so be sure the firm is registered."

Wouldn't an aspiring trader rather join a "true" prop firm rather than a broker-dealer?

In regards to no deposit firms, yea the payout is lower, but considering the amount of traders that fail to make money, wouldn't it be financially prudent to start at this firm anyway? There is also a good probability that the buying power would be greater. Hedge funds can pay their traders 20% of the net profits and they don't complain because their buying power is millions of dollars.

At a broker-dealer prop shop a kid that deposits 5k will have a 50,000 -100,000k account... what money can he really make with that? Factor in $5 commissions for every 1000 shares, probably pressured to trade more as well as, won't be able to hold much size overnight, etc.... he would have to be the Michael Jordan of trading to make 6 figures after cost of doing business.
 
Quote from atlTrader666:

I'm not trying to attack your company, it is what it is. I'm just trying to give him some information and advice especially because he has another thread where he mentions he wants to join a firm with little/no deposit... he's also aware of the small % of success rates.

Just to elaborate on Bright and similar firms, they are brokers... hence on your own link it says:

"Professional trading firms
Disclosure: Bright Trading falls into this category (there are other such firms, of course). Professional trading firms follow what is often called the “stock exchange floor trader” business model. These firms are designed for those who want to get into the business of trading for a living. These firms are broker–dealer exchange members that require basic licensing of their traders."

For a newer trader he must realize that all he is doing in opening a brokerage account. The term prop trading is subjective, but here are your own words:

"“True prop” trading firms
“True prop” refers to firms that either hire traders or allow traders to come in with no capital. There are excellent firms that will hire graduates from top schools, train them, and pay them a salary, but such firms are getting fewer and fewer in number. There are, however, several excellent firms in Chicago and New York. To join them, you’ll go through a screening process, and you’ll be expected to work your way up. Hedge funds also fall into this category. It’s a stringent application process, but well worth it if you can align yourself with a solid firm. The same caveats apply, however, so be sure the firm is registered."

Wouldn't an aspiring trader rather join a "true" prop firm rather than a broker-dealer?

In regards to no deposit firms, yea the payout is lower, but considering the amount of traders that fail to make money, wouldn't it be financially prudent to start at this firm anyway? There is also a good probability that the buying power would be greater. Hedge funds can pay their traders 20% of the net profits and they don't complain because their buying power is millions of dollars.

At a broker-dealer prop shop a kid that deposits 5k will have a 50,000 -100,000k account... what money can he really make with that? Factor in $5 commissions for every 1000 shares, probably pressured to trade more as well as, won't be able to hold much size overnight, etc.... he would have to be the Michael Jordan of trading to make 6 figures after cost of doing business.
More...

I agree with the $50k-$100k, as we all know it takes much more to make a good living in this business. We simply offer a professional alternative to those who may not fit into the "job" trading model... same as all the exchange floor traders for decades... they had the same opportunity, still do.. they can buy or lease a membership and join a clearing firm... with us they don't require a seat or anything, just registration.

No big argument here....

all the best,

Don
 
Thanks, alot of good info here,

So far I was referred to pascal (a sub account) who works with or goes through Derek at Everest capital. They have a small office located in st Henri here in montreal with 3 traders which i will soon visit.

For about 1000 I will get leverage of 100,000
once you have lost 1000$ you are asked to refill your deposit
there is a 70/30 split in my favor
1.20 routes credit.
fees are 20 + 15 cents per 1000.

Can work remote or a combination of working remote and office. Looking like a small firm they are very flexible.

I know the advice here is to get a firm that requires no deposit and offers exposure to traders. For now at least I am staying away from that. First i will test the waters then readjust if needed.

I would really prefer to trade from home to start and dont mind spending 1000$ to get started.

Let me know your thoughts on this company. Also assuming that I do make money, when should i expect to paid, should i expect to have access to all my gains right away?

Does any one know of this out fit ?

thanks
 
Their giving you 100:1 leverage in equities? Really? Maybe it's just forex or futures? Either way you'll have little room for error with that margin.

Also regarding commissions, is it 35 cents for 100 instead of 1000?
 
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