Help with Mixing Timeframe

T

trader99

Hey Guys,

So, here's the problem. I SUCK at daytrading. Period. I tried it for several years and I quit.(I went back to a normal corporate job and do a little bit of swing trading on the side for fun.). However, I'm pretty decent with swing trading at times. I find it less time consuming and less stressful. At times, I'm decent with daytrading, but I'm a net loser in daytrading overall.

I get confused between the two timeframes! For example, I'm short something based on the daily chart. But then I go into the intraday chart and screw around even though my original thesis/idea for the swing trade is still valid. I get scared by the intraday moves. Or I cut my profits too quickly.

I'm not saying my swing trading is perfect. It's far from it. The problem with my swing trade is that the entries are "horrible" at times. Because I look at the daily and long term chart and I just enter. So many times I have to sit through what would be harrowing initial loss(from a daytrading perspective) then it finally goes my way. And in many ways my entries for my swing trade are at times the "worst" possible spots on an intraday basis. That is I would short the intraday lows and long the intraday highs.

What kept me on these positions is my daily charts. So, I would sit through the noise then it finally go my way according to the daily chart. And I net an amount that's easily many multiples of my typical daytrades(high R) and lower commissions, etc.

However, I've been thinking perhaps I can use the intraday charts to time my swing trades better. But the problem is that when I screwed around on intraday charts I'm a net loser with a bunch of small trades and even get out too soon on my longer swing trading positions.

What should I do?

1) Just stick with what works - swing trading though my entries are initially "horrible." But this tells me exits are what's important. When you exit is what makes you money.

2) Try to refine my entries and exits on my swing with some intraday trading. But my track record on intraday basis is not so great. Though it improved a bit.

3) ???

Your suggestions are most welcomed. Given the crowd here is mostly intraday I'm interested to hear what you got to say.

Thanks in advance!

99
 
One thing to consider is maybe doing just a really simple/crude version of intraday chart analysis to try to enter at a slightly better place.

For example you could experiment with a rule where you will only enter a swing trade when an oscillator like RSI on the 5-minute or 15-minute chart is in 'oversold' territory. That would at least make it so you wouldn't be buying stuff when it's very extended already near its high of the day, etc.
 
Quote from trader99:

Hey Guys,

So, here's the problem. I SUCK at daytrading. Period. I tried it for several years and I quit.(I went back to a normal corporate job and do a little bit of swing trading on the side for fun.). However, I'm pretty decent with swing trading at times. I find it less time consuming and less stressful. At times, I'm decent with daytrading, but I'm a net loser in daytrading overall.

I get confused between the two timeframes! For example, I'm short something based on the daily chart. But then I go into the intraday chart and screw around even though my original thesis/idea for the swing trade is still valid. I get scared by the intraday moves. Or I cut my profits too quickly.

I'm not saying my swing trading is perfect. It's far from it. The problem with my swing trade is that the entries are "horrible" at times. Because I look at the daily and long term chart and I just enter. So many times I have to sit through what would be harrowing initial loss(from a daytrading perspective) then it finally goes my way. And in many ways my entries for my swing trade are at times the "worst" possible spots on an intraday basis. That is I would short the intraday lows and long the intraday highs.

What kept me on these positions is my daily charts. So, I would sit through the noise then it finally go my way according to the daily chart. And I net an amount that's easily many multiples of my typical daytrades(high R) and lower commissions, etc.

However, I've been thinking perhaps I can use the intraday charts to time my swing trades better. But the problem is that when I screwed around on intraday charts I'm a net loser with a bunch of small trades and even get out too soon on my longer swing trading positions.

What should I do?

1) Just stick with what works - swing trading though my entries are initially "horrible." But this tells me exits are what's important. When you exit is what makes you money.

2) Try to refine my entries and exits on my swing with some intraday trading. But my track record on intraday basis is not so great. Though it improved a bit.

3) ???

Your suggestions are most welcomed. Given the crowd here is mostly intraday I'm interested to hear what you got to say.

Thanks in advance!

99
More...


"I SUCK at daytrading."
"I'm pretty decent with swing trading at times. I find it less time consuming and less stressful."
"I get scared by the intraday moves."
"when I screwed around on intraday charts I'm a net loser"

You've answered your own question.
Just stick with what works [for YOU].

Trade On!
 
Quote from tiddlywinks:

"I SUCK at daytrading."
"I'm pretty decent with swing trading at times. I find it less time consuming and less stressful."
"I get scared by the intraday moves."
"when I screwed around on intraday charts I'm a net loser"

You've answered your own question.
Just stick with what works [for YOU].

Trade On!
More...
Thanks for the suggestions. And it makes sense. But I want to IMPROVE my swing trading via some better daytrading entries & exits.

Sure, I can still capture some of the moves. But I think it's suboptimal as described above. And I'm getting confused between the two timeframes.
 
Quote from thunderbolttr:

One thing to consider is maybe doing just a really simple/crude version of intraday chart analysis to try to enter at a slightly better place.

For example you could experiment with a rule where you will only enter a swing trade when an oscillator like RSI on the 5-minute or 15-minute chart is in 'oversold' territory. That would at least make it so you wouldn't be buying stuff when it's very extended already near its high of the day, etc.
More...

This is an EXCELLENT suggestions. I will consider that when doing entries and exits intraday and still hold for the big swing moves. If I can master that then it will be more precise trading. :)
 
"I'm not saying my swing trading is perfect. It's far from it. The problem with my swing trade is that the entries are "horrible" at times. Because I look at the daily and long term chart and I just enter. So many times I have to sit through what would be harrowing initial loss(from a daytrading perspective) then it finally goes my way. And in many ways my entries for my swing trade are at times the "worst" possible spots on an intraday basis. That is I would short the intraday lows and long the intraday highs."



Lol, i know this problem well. A few answers:

1) Wait for a retracement. Problem is that there may not be one and so you miss the trade.

2) Scale in. Put part of your position on and hope it retraces so you can put the rest on.

3) Live with it and accept that you will have horrible entries.

Might take some time to not only figure out what is the best for you, but also to integrate it into your psyche.
 
4) Put your position on as normal. If it now retraces enough, double your position. Ensure you have your stops in place.

Sort of like doubling up in blackjack :D
 
Quote from trader99:

Hey Guys,

So, here's the problem. I SUCK at daytrading. Period. I tried it for several years and I quit.(I went back to a normal corporate job and do a little bit of swing trading on the side for fun.). However, I'm pretty decent with swing trading at times. I find it less time consuming and less stressful. At times, I'm decent with daytrading, but I'm a net loser in daytrading overall.

I get confused between the two timeframes! For example, I'm short something based on the daily chart. But then I go into the intraday chart and screw around even though my original thesis/idea for the swing trade is still valid. I get scared by the intraday moves. Or I cut my profits too quickly.

I'm not saying my swing trading is perfect. It's far from it. The problem with my swing trade is that the entries are "horrible" at times. Because I look at the daily and long term chart and I just enter. So many times I have to sit through what would be harrowing initial loss(from a daytrading perspective) then it finally goes my way. And in many ways my entries for my swing trade are at times the "worst" possible spots on an intraday basis. That is I would short the intraday lows and long the intraday highs.

What kept me on these positions is my daily charts. So, I would sit through the noise then it finally go my way according to the daily chart. And I net an amount that's easily many multiples of my typical daytrades(high R) and lower commissions, etc.

However, I've been thinking perhaps I can use the intraday charts to time my swing trades better. But the problem is that when I screwed around on intraday charts I'm a net loser with a bunch of small trades and even get out too soon on my longer swing trading positions.

What should I do?

1) Just stick with what works - swing trading though my entries are initially "horrible." But this tells me exits are what's important. When you exit is what makes you money.

2) Try to refine my entries and exits on my swing with some intraday trading. But my track record on intraday basis is not so great. Though it improved a bit.

3) ???

Your suggestions are most welcomed. Given the crowd here is mostly intraday I'm interested to hear what you got to say.

Thanks in advance!

99
More...


"The problem with my swing trade is that the entries are "horrible" at times. Because I look at the daily and long term chart and I just enter. So many times I have to sit through what would be harrowing initial loss(from a daytrading perspective) then it finally goes my way. And in many ways my entries for my swing trade are at times the "worst" possible spots on an intraday basis. That is I would short the intraday lows and long the intraday highs."

"I get confused between the two timeframes! For example, I'm short something based on the daily chart. But then I go into the intraday chart and screw around even though my original thesis/idea for the swing trade is still valid. I get scared by the intraday moves. Or I cut my profits too quickly."


Your "problem" if it can be called a problem (since your thesis/idea seems to be valid) is you have no rules, you "just enter".

My advise...
1) stay far away from intraday charts. They scare you and confuse you.
On a daily chart there is 1 set of 5 datum (OHLCV) to analyze. On a 5min chart there are 78 sets of 5 datum to analyze, not including pre or post hours. There is no magic indicator that will change this. Which is the better odds for an easier, less stressful/ less confusing time... 1 out of 1, or 1 out of 78?

2) Start with some really really simple rule, on a daily. Instead of just entering, put a fib retracement ON THE BAR, and try entering at say the 50% mark for an entry. Keep the order live for the day only. Point being you need some rules, with the understanding that no rule will trigger, or save you, 100% of the time.

3) Do not fall into the trap of "nailing it" (There is a whiff of this in your post) That is a 100% psychological issue/problem/pitfall. For instance, I have several intraday setups that when triggered are timed holds. For these setups, my own analysis shows that within x minutes, y percent of the time, I can expect n tics. My only job as a trader is to make money, which is not the same as making money by holding for maximum available profits on each trade.

Good luck
Trade On!
 
Thank you guys! These are some of the most useful and helpful advice! There are good people on ET.

I really need to do something about this. Last night, I was screwing around with my core ZN position. I had a short one way up there on the daily chart. I was trying to be "too smart" thinking I can get out then re-short on the intraday bounce. Boy was I wrong. Had I just stayed put like Livermore said("It's not my thinking. It's my sitting that made me money.")

So, instead I went long intraday last night. Lost a little bit and missed out one of the BIG move overnight. This morning I should have been really ringing it in.

:(:(:(

I need to add additional tools both technical and psychological to my swing trading. And get rid some of my losing daytrading habits!
 
swing trading. Stick with what works for you, I agree.

In day trading you need the strength to change mind rapidly once you ve entered a wrong position (if you thought it is going to be a down day on the daily and you get long on the 1H chart but then can t cut your loss depsite your inital assumption.. then day trading not for you (yet..))
 
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