Help, I've been chopped!

Thanks NoDoji for your earlier comments. I will definitely need to consider the higher time frame remark.

Since we're on the subject of chop, I'd like to include a discussion on complex retracements. Pullbacks that don't really change the trend, but still scare the living daylights out of us .. :-) ... How do we handle them ?

The attached chart is the ES on 8/09. Entry number 3 is in the complex retracement, a short against previous support, now hopefully resistance. It was the 3rd pullback in the trend, so a bit higher risk.

How would you have managed this ? Initial stop at stop 1 ? Move stop to stop 2 after some positive excursion ? Re-enter at short 4 ?

Thanks, TZ.
 

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Quote from NoDoji:

I have a great list of "chop warning" signs I'll post later, and will also explain more about my concepts of airspace and congestion.

Extremely interested in seeing this :D

edit - you already posted it. Whoops!
 
Quote from 1a2b3cppp:

Extremely interested in seeing this :D


open your eyez , its on page 2

Quote from NoDoji:

Here are the price action environments that I've found to be warning signs to tread carefully. When these contextual clues appear, I realize that two sides feel equally confident and a lot more defense takes place both directions. This leads to chop and narrowing consolidation and out of this environment a new strong move will eventually transpire. My job is to either watch patiently for the market to tip its hand (and this can take half an hour or sometimes over an hour to happen), or to cross-reference a shorter time frame chart to see where smaller scalping opportunities may arise.

Back to back opposing bar breaks: Price swings on any given chart consist of two or more price bars that trend in a direction. If it's a smooth swing, there is no bar overlap. If price is falling for two or three bars and then the high of a down bar is broken to the upside, that signals a potential turn of direction. The key word here is potential. If the upside break fails quickly or if the very next bar breaks in the opposite direction, we have...chop.

Break of a wide range bar: The break of a wide range bar in the opposite direction of the previous price move is usually not the signal of a turn of direction. It's often a nice head fake trap. Think about it: If price prints wide strong green bar, then the next bar retraces all that green and breaks the low of the green bar, what's happening on the same chart with a shorter time frame? It's a range and the initial break of a range fails more often than not.

Two-leg pullback traps: When price turns following a strong directional move and retraces more than half the move with one or two strong pullback bars, and there's a key S/R level closer now than the previous swing high or low, a break of a retrace bar back in the direction of the strong directional move is frequently a two-peg pullback trap, and the journey to the key S/R level will often resume.

Price closes on the opposite side of a rising or falling 20EMA: In well-defined trend, the 20-bar EMA will be clearly rising or falling. In a really strong trend price may not even pull back to it for a long time. Once price closes on the other side of it, though, it flattens the 20EMA. This is a sign of a potential trend reversal, but it doesn't usually happen quickly. Often there's a period of back and forth chop as the previous trend-following side vies for continued control against the side that's trying to take over.

Initial break out of a range: The initial break out of an established range usually fails.

Initial break of a symmetrical triangle: The initial break out of a symmetrical triangle usually fails in both directions.

(If the range or the symmetrical triangle is very narrow, the initial breakout is usually strong.)

Inside bars, outside bars and doji bars: These are simply ranges or flags on a shorter time frame chart. Since initial breaks out of ranges are prone to fail, be careful about being the first mouse to trade the break of single inside or outside bars.

Initial break of a well-defined trend line (overshoot): These are nearly always fades on the initial breakout. Be the cautious second mouse who gets the cheese in such an environment.

Running into the defense (“congestion between camps”): Price levels where a previous group of traders successfully went long or short for a decent ride will nearly always be defended if price gets all the way back to that zone. Also, channel lines, trend lines and 20-bar moving averages in a well-defined trend will nearly always be defended on the first re-visit. If you're planning to put on a trade, be sure you have enough ticks of room (airspace) between your entry and these defensive zones to escape with little damage if the defense is strong and drives price back against you. If these levels are really close together, you're dealing with congestion between the bulls and bears and this can often lead to...chop.
 
Quote from NoDoji:

Have you experienced the "death by a thousand cuts" that comes from trading in "chop"?

Are you confused about how to know when price is setting up for a potential mess of chop/range/"barb wire"?

If so, I have some good news: The doctor is in!

Post your charts and the trades where you got "chopped" and if any of my favorite anti-chop price action concepts apply to your situation, I'll share my tips for avoiding the blades of destruction :cool:

Most traders seem to view the markets' price action as either "trend" or "chop". Some can trade one or the other fairly well but fail at the other... most likely because of their (apparently) hard-wired bias.

Part of the art of trading is to recognize "either trend or chop" and trade both with some degree of effectiveness.... not commonly done, however.
 
Hi there, new to the forum and this is my first post. (Yay!)

Anyway, I really enjoyed this thread, but I was wondering--early in the thread the screen shots included Volume activity at the bottom, but later people stopped including them. Are those who are posting not using Volume during their intraday trading? I would have thought it would be an added factor for determining entry and exit points...

I'm pretty new to all this, so please excuse me if it's a silly question.
 
Quote from Ppark:

Are those who are posting not using Volume during their intraday trading? I would have thought it would be an added factor for determining entry and exit points...
Obviously... some use volume and some don't.

Read the posts by NoDoji and DbPhoenix and you'll be off to a good start (which probably puts me in the "no volume unless it's important"-camp :p ).
 
You were not chopped. You had a LL. Then a LH, then another LL. You took a counter trend trade for no good reason. Trend was down, no HH's were ever made.

Your Problems:

1) You don't know what chop is. You got stopped out a bad trade. Chop is sideways range bound movement that is not wide enough to trade profitably. Brook's also talks about "barbed wire" pattern. Chop also occurs more frequently during non standard market hours where the market may be open for example, but where most traders are not in fact trading.

2) You were unable to recognize a short setup.

3) Even if you were waiting for a long setups only, you were not patient enough to wait for a real setup to occur which may occur in the future not shown in your chart. Also, if I was going to wait to be long, I would need to see a bull market over the longer time frame for example over a week.

Quote from jack411:

Here's a trade from today. I was +7 ticks at one point but was holding for a larger target as the lows had been taken out, and I thought the bottom was in. I ended up -8 ticks.

My biggest issue when it comes to "chop" is moving my stop. There would have been plenty of times my target would have been hit on a trade like this, or I would have moved my stop up at least a few ticks. This specific time I didn't as I was looking for a larger move.

I've read previous posts you made where you talk about a lot of scratch trades. When do you prefer to move your stop to breakeven? How many ticks in your favor do you wait for, and is this a number that you backtested for your specific market or does it depend more on actual price action signals?

edit: After looking at the chart again I see that I should have used the downsloping channel. I've always noticed this with triangles, but recognizing in real time has always been the challenge. It's similar to what Brooks refers to as a "trendline channel overshoot". Or something like that lol. I would still like to see your explanation though and how you may have handled the PA at the time.
 
Quote from Scataphagos:

Most traders seem to view the markets' price action as either "trend" or "chop". Some can trade one or the other fairly well but fail at the other... most likely because of their (apparently) hard-wired bias.

Part of the art of trading is to recognize "either trend or chop" and trade both with some degree of effectiveness.... not commonly done, however.

Well, what other choices are there? Price is either running or puttsing around gathering strength to do what it will do.

When price consolidates (chops) maybe it is wiser to NOT beat yourself up and "trade both with some degree of effectiveness". That is admitting you are tripping over yourself trying to make gold from fools gold. Yes, "not commonly done" is correct but must also be understood as "not commonly attempted".

NoDoji, is helping others RECOGNIZE chop and how to stay out of trouble from it.

A retrace is not chop, a retrace is a part of the trending process, chop is NOT part of the trending process. They are separate and not equal.

Look at the picture like this: You are a breakout trend follower, you darn well understand the inevitable breakouts that fail and have your own set of safeguards how to handle them. With that in mind, why would ANY wise trader attempt to "trade both with some degree of effectiveness" ? Would that not get your signals crossed?

Recognize chop as she wants you to do. Trade it at your own peril. To attempt both, well that is silly at best and goes against common sense.

PS: The "20" is itself the best trendline on a chart, rather than trendlines why not just use THE TREND of the "20" as your guardian angel. Sure the "20" is always late, but being a bit late actually enhances the setups by giving them a bot more room to gather the strength to make the next leg of a trend..........that is the real purpose of consolidation.

Listen to NoDoji, do not try to frontrun her. :eek:
 
Quote from bighog:

Look at the picture like this: You are a breakout trend follower, you darn well understand the inevitable breakouts that fail and have your own set of safeguards how to handle them. With that in mind, why would ANY wise trader attempt to "trade both with some degree of effectiveness" ? Would that not get your signals crossed?

Absolutely right. No trader on earth ever has, does now or ever be able to identify pending price action as directional or sideways. Everyone sees what it was in hindsight, and most failing traders keep themselves stuck in the hindsight rut of what they should/could have done.

The reality is, consistent edges are created by repeated similar acts in the market. You can look for trading sideways or you can look for trading directional periods. But nobody can look for both AND figure out which will be what ahead of time. They will always have conflict, confusion, fear, hesitancy in mind... and break down of discipline will soon follow.

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Want to avoid sideways chop? Once the first 5-minute bar of any pit-session for trading (any stock, commodity, financial market/symbol) opens, apply the high-odds price measurement grid.

Lean aggressively to the long side at/above top of open range.

Lean aggressively to the short side at/below bottom of open range

That simple, effortless, no-brainer price action study will ALWAYS show you the trend bias side of price for EVERY directional trend move :cool:
 

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austinp............. HA!! You nailed it.

The OPENING RANGE BREAKOUT METHOD. It can not be easier for a way to start the day. Whatever happened overnight, yesterday, last leap year, your ex's birthday all are MOX-NIX when using the ORB.

Wait for the regular pit times to open, let that 5 min bar close. If price goes above the OR (opening range) you BUY, if below it you SELL. You set a target for each toy used and sit tight, your STOP can be the other side of the OR if mechanical or anything in between (including the borders) if using discretion STOPS. Picking "butt fuzz orders" might save a few ticks here and there but mechanical requires no thinking. The OR can be wide at times in CL (50 ticks +), but I have been tagged for that loss and have recovered. When picking fuzz, STOPS you can get in trouble. I hate trouble so keep to the boring side of trading. There are plenty of ways to get in trouble as it is. I do like to double up losers as a way to get half way back and be even to start over, ha, that requires knowing if we are in chop or a simple retrace move.........retraces are candy then.

NoDoji is probably the only person I see on ET or anywhere else that can use the 1m chart as an adjunct to the 5m. She knows chop from slop. Aside from her, I would say almost everyone else is going to waste time in the 1m.



:cool:

PS: once you have hit a target using the ORB, you decide if momentum is suitable to reenter for another target or just leave well enough alone......that is when the ORB is done for the day and you revert back to regular TA signals. A sweet start is when 4 targets are hit right out of the gate. SIMPLE IS AS SIMPLE DOES. Whipsaws are handled from experience.......trading is never a breeze, but COOL, certainly...........
 
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