I could say to all that have Replied to the thread. I guess as a pit trader for 8 years, you can say that he was caught in a fog. I know it sounds like bs but I'm sure that his judgement to put those trades on were something that came to him on a last move to make back the money lost a month ago. I know he came from nothing. He came to the exchange as a runner just like myself. Worked his whole life for a dream to make it to the top. It took him 20 years to get to that point. I know for sure that he wasn't in the right frame when he placed those trades, but when backed into a corner do or die he went down the wrong path. I'm sure he was up all night watching the market break. With every down tick his math and choice were getting clearer. I'm very sure he loved is life. I seen alot of joy and laughter in his corner at his desk were he worked. One large teddy bear without a worry in world on his face. Once he reached a point of no return that was that. The fog or haze on the thought process was there . Judgement no where to be found he took his life all pain of the loss was gone just left was the pain to friends and family. The position that he put on was a profitable one if he just lived for another 7 hours he would have made all the money that he had lost weeks before. I so sorry for the family and I'm going to miss him and his smile dearly. My best to all that replied datstrader
Hearing Chicago MERC trader commited suicide after blowing out
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There were probably other issue's that were affecting his decision making. He certainly went outside his normal range of risk. His discipline failed, either by fear or design.
He could have had pressures from gambling, Real estate, other investments.
Another point on wealth. The media shows wealthy people as idle, exploiters. immoral, greedy, snobs. Obama feels he can get away with his class welfare.
1 in 100 households are millionaires. Traders are not like the movie Trading Places. Floor traders even more so are from the street.
He could have had pressures from gambling, Real estate, other investments.
Another point on wealth. The media shows wealthy people as idle, exploiters. immoral, greedy, snobs. Obama feels he can get away with his class welfare.
1 in 100 households are millionaires. Traders are not like the movie Trading Places. Floor traders even more so are from the street.
I agree with the first half of your post.
As for Ivy League MBA's . . . there are some that have traded on the floor and done very well. Case in point: Mark Fisher of NYMEX/COMEX fame and MBF Clearing, a summa cum laude Wharton Business School grad. He too, started out as a "runner" on the floor of the COMEX at age 12.
http://mbfcc.com/about.html
Moreover, most of the guys that are making markets for an investment bank's equity derivative desk and facilitating customer "trade" are guys with huge "quant" backgrounds that cut their teeth in option trading at either O'Connor or Susquehanna before winding-up at Goldman, Morgan, or Deutsche Bank. Not only are they TRADERS, but they also have the ability to size up risk very quickly with the opportunity to take full advantage of a trading opportunity via putting on some sort of a "hedge" to be unwound at a later date.
Let's face it.
An MBA is just a "brownie" badge to get into the game. It has nothing to do with whether or not the guy is some kind of an Ivy League "prick" ( as you stated ).
Thus, I think that your "generalization" and characterization of MBA's doesn't hold a lot of water.
It's a stupid stereotype. Nothing more.
Nothing less.
It's a lot different facilitating size in a fast market when you're working with JPM's balance sheet than with your own children's education money.
I would agree with a statement saying "I've never met a consistent winner who isn't extra intelligent. The floor attracted a lot of smart guys who'd fallen between the cracks of academia or business. You might have a cabbie and an MBA standing next to each other and quite possibly the cabbie was the more intuitive dare I say smarter of the two. Just like IMHO the under educated, stumbling mother of five from Alaska more accurately senses the future-or is it the non-future of America better than the articulate, Ivy league lawyer. We've just witnessed on Wall Street and in the administration what the "best and brightest" are capable of. And to think a majority of America will sell out our future in a couple of weeks based on grades, lol. Of course we'd love to see an actual transcript or an achievement or two but what the hey....
I would agree with a statement saying "I've never met a consistent winner who isn't extra intelligent. The floor attracted a lot of smart guys who'd fallen between the cracks of academia or business. You might have a cabbie and an MBA standing next to each other and quite possibly the cabbie was the more intuitive dare I say smarter of the two. Just like IMHO the under educated, stumbling mother of five from Alaska more accurately senses the future-or is it the non-future of America better than the articulate, Ivy league lawyer. We've just witnessed on Wall Street and in the administration what the "best and brightest" are capable of. And to think a majority of America will sell out our future in a couple of weeks based on grades, lol. Of course we'd love to see an actual transcript or an achievement or two but what the hey....
Quote from Pa(b)st Prime:
It's a lot different facilitating size in a fast market when you're working with JPM's balance sheet than with your own children's education money.
I would agree with a statement saying "I've never met a consistent winner who isn't extra intelligent. The floor attracted a lot of smart guys who'd fallen between the cracks of academia or business. You might have a cabbie and an MBA standing next to each other and quite possibly the cabbie was the more intuitive dare I say smarter of the two. Just like IMHO the under educated, stumbling mother of five from Alaska more accurately senses the future-or is it the non-future of America better than the articulate, Ivy league lawyer. We've just witnessed on Wall Street and in the administration what the "best and brightest" are capable of. And to think a majority of America will sell out our future in a couple of weeks based on grades, lol. Of course we'd love to see an actual transcript or an achievement or two but what the hey....
I think this what Nassim Taleb talks about in length in the "Fooled by Randomness" and 'The Black Swan". There a lot of idiot savants in trading and finance. George Soros wasnt near the top of his class at the LSE and isnt good at math, but he can smell BS a mile a while and can handle trading massive sizes. Is there anyone out there with more than 9 billion from trading?
Well put. I think Pabst, myself, and whoever he quoted might look at the 'biz a little differently. When you clerk on the floor for locals and get to know that culture, its just different. I don't know how to explain it otherwise.
But as mentioned above, it becomes your identity, who you are. It becomes dangerous when you consider the same things that made you who you are...risk taker, balls, being fearless...can also be your downfall. Your whole trading career you've made a name for yourself being a guy who can 'hold his nuts'.....but maybe one day you'll hold 'em a little too long and realize on the close you have absolutely nothing to your name. Everything you've worked for is gone...the Benz (or whatever) you paid cash for after a good month last year, will have to be sold, like everything else you own, including your seat, to make your margin and give you at least something to live on.
"making it back" when its that bad is almost impossible. Because its a real mind fuck when you know that the characteristics that made you money before (having balls, taking risk in the market)....are the same ones that got you rolled. Think you'd be a little gun shy? Unable to take even the obvious trades you'd cash in on before.
I don't really keep track but I'm a smaller local and I think my worst day ever is losing the same amount as what I would call 'a decent month'. Getting back in there never has anything to do with whats going on in the market, only when will you be able to trade with confidence again. I could definitley see how a horrible day could snowball into a low point where someone just doesn't see a way out. I like to think it would never happen to me because I try not to put myself in that position, and I'm generally considered more conservative....but really if you trade any type of size in these markets or take any type of real risk....anything could conceivably happen.
A few weeks ago there was a move in my market....when some bank went to market (supposedly it was an accident) with a huge order. Rumor has it, it was supposed to be a limit order and ended up a market order for a huge amount in a thin market. In seconds we broke 100 pts....about 5x what would be consider a very volitile day. I was caught on the wrong side and made the trade of my life to lose only about 5gs. Literally, if I had been a split second slower that loss would have been about 70g. No way would I have killled myself but I def. would have been very depressed and probably would have had to take some time off.
I'm younger, so I'd have handled it better. But I could see how someone who's worked a lot longer than me, for a lot more, with others depending on them (family) could take a loss in a similar situation that truly would seem unbearable in every way.
*edit....I guess all I'm saying is for bigger scalpers and locals....with size we trade and risk we take there is always some outside chance of a catastrophic loss happening before you even realize whats going on. Think market crash, terrorism, etc, when you have over 100 lots on....crazy shit can happen.....and, having taken my share of losers, I can tell you there's a feeling of "shell shock" that is very, very bad...when nothing but making the same trades you make day in and day out...suddenly and quickly leads to terrible losses....its just a 'falling off a cliff' feeling that can't be described unless you've been there. The mind fuck is knowing the only way back is trading the same way that got you burned in the first place. Because as a local or scalper you are playing the odds....betting against the highly improbably....betting against the black swan. Its a profitable gig but there's always that fear knowing that every once in awhile the highly improbable does happen.
Cheers
Quote from Pa(b)st Prime:
It's a lot different facilitating size in a fast market when you're working with JPM's balance sheet than with your own children's education money.
I would agree with a statement saying "I've never met a consistent winner who isn't extra intelligent. The floor attracted a lot of smart guys who'd fallen between the cracks of academia or business. You might have a cabbie and an MBA standing next to each other and quite possibly the cabbie was the more intuitive dare I say smarter of the two. Just like IMHO the under educated, stumbling mother of five from Alaska more accurately senses the future-or is it the non-future of America better than the articulate, Ivy league lawyer. We've just witnessed on Wall Street and in the administration what the "best and brightest" are capable of. And to think a majority of America will sell out our future in a couple of weeks based on grades, lol. Of course we'd love to see an actual transcript or an achievement or two but what the hey....
Of the two very successful traders (like 10-50M) on CME that I was was pretty good friends with the first didn't go to college and the 2nd went to U of I just to make his momma happy... ! But both had massive street smarts!
I'm going to ask all of you who have no sympathy for this man's suicide to try something.
Imagine you have an older brother. He was the nicest, warmest brother you could have ever asked for. He always wore a smile on his face, and laughed at your jokes.
Imagine being a young child, waiting anxiously on the stairs for him to walk through the front door on holidays. You are eagerly awaiting a giant hug from your big brother.
Imagine that your brother works at the Chicago Mercantile Exchange. He is successful, and enjoys nice things. However, what he really enjoys is his family and friends. He has worked hard to be where he is at, and as you grow over the years you share your life with him. Money is not what you discuss at the dinner table. Instead, you smile and laugh with your brother, and you love him with all of your heart.
Now imagine one day, you get the phone call. Your big brother decided to take his own life.
Imagine searching, heartbroken, for any bit of information you can collect about his death. You come across a traders forum, and see a variety of reactions to news of his suicide. Already in a fragile state of mind, you notice that some people have no regard or sympathy for your brother's death. You read about how people assume that he was fed with a silver spoon his entire life, that his wife was a gold digging cuntcurtain, and that he is "pathetic".
The reality of this is something I know, because this man IS my big brother. I am twenty-one years old, and 21 years is all the time I will ever have spent with him.
What is really pathetic:
1. Assumptions about his life, whether you knew him or not. Most of these comments come from people who never knew him personally. It is no one's place to judge another. What can you really say about someone that you don't know?
2. While I realize this is a forum for discussion, and there is nothing wrong with stating opinions in here, the judgemental comments are quite disrespectful.
This man was a son, husband, brother, and friend to many. He was real, and dealt with real problems, just like everyone else. Think about it. How would you feel if this story was not about my brother, but yours? Please have more respect for the death of another person, and for his family and friends. Please be considerate in the future when speaking on issues that are not a laughing matter.
To those who expressed concern and their condolences, THANK YOU.
Imagine you have an older brother. He was the nicest, warmest brother you could have ever asked for. He always wore a smile on his face, and laughed at your jokes.
Imagine being a young child, waiting anxiously on the stairs for him to walk through the front door on holidays. You are eagerly awaiting a giant hug from your big brother.
Imagine that your brother works at the Chicago Mercantile Exchange. He is successful, and enjoys nice things. However, what he really enjoys is his family and friends. He has worked hard to be where he is at, and as you grow over the years you share your life with him. Money is not what you discuss at the dinner table. Instead, you smile and laugh with your brother, and you love him with all of your heart.
Now imagine one day, you get the phone call. Your big brother decided to take his own life.
Imagine searching, heartbroken, for any bit of information you can collect about his death. You come across a traders forum, and see a variety of reactions to news of his suicide. Already in a fragile state of mind, you notice that some people have no regard or sympathy for your brother's death. You read about how people assume that he was fed with a silver spoon his entire life, that his wife was a gold digging cuntcurtain, and that he is "pathetic".
The reality of this is something I know, because this man IS my big brother. I am twenty-one years old, and 21 years is all the time I will ever have spent with him.
What is really pathetic:
1. Assumptions about his life, whether you knew him or not. Most of these comments come from people who never knew him personally. It is no one's place to judge another. What can you really say about someone that you don't know?
2. While I realize this is a forum for discussion, and there is nothing wrong with stating opinions in here, the judgemental comments are quite disrespectful.
This man was a son, husband, brother, and friend to many. He was real, and dealt with real problems, just like everyone else. Think about it. How would you feel if this story was not about my brother, but yours? Please have more respect for the death of another person, and for his family and friends. Please be considerate in the future when speaking on issues that are not a laughing matter.
To those who expressed concern and their condolences, THANK YOU.