Hard core frugal livin' traders
- Thread starter Georgii
- Start date
How about trading part time and very small size (or sim) in another time zone while holding a regular job and saving as much as you can in your regular time zone?.
You must have enough saved for at least a year of living expenses in addition to your trading bankroll before giving it a shot full time, and your expected value from your trading bankroll has to be bigger than your expenses, otherwise your bankroll will shrink progressively till it eventually dissappears.
Becoming an assistant in a trading office (with competent traders) is another option to earn and save while you learn something of value.
Just an opinion.
JW
If you want to be a trader there is no set amount of time it will take you to develop. You need to possess the attitude that you are going to make it no matter what. If you don't think you can do it or doubt that you can the world will weed you out. I never knew a profitable trader with "natural talent. Every trader that is called a natural ends up blowing up eventually. They got caught in one temporary edge that lasted until it didnt.
So make the choice knowing you will be strung out to dry before you get it back, but it comes back QUICK.
So make the choice knowing you will be strung out to dry before you get it back, but it comes back QUICK.
Thanks for all the thoughts...
Here's then a likely scenario:
Year one you break even, maybe are slightly positive. You have a chance.
Year two you suffer a few drawdowns, are getting better but your income is still uneven.
Year three you suffer less drawdowns...
etc.
So basically, you really have to plan for at least two-three years of alternate income sources to keep yourself alive, unless you start with an account well into six figures from what I'm getting. That means you won't be 100% committed to your trading because you're going to have to have a second job. Like it or not your energy will be divided, you'll come to the desk more tired, distracted...
In the beginning you're probably lucky if you can squeeze 10% net for the whole year (so if you have 100k, that's 10K), and eventually you get to 50%, etc. We're assuming an intraday strategy.
The biggest difficulty here is that there's no predictable rate of return. One guy can pull just ahead of the S&P 500, the next one does 200% or more.
With a regular retail business you can do the math and come to an approximation of what your IRR is, say by year one I should be making X dollars, year two, etc. You can be off, but usually it falls into a range of predictability.
With trading its almost like throwing a dart into the dark. Are you going to be just beating treasuries for three years, are you going to blow it all four times before you start beating t bills, or are you going to turn $1000 to $1M in six months?
I hear with swing trading you kick A when you're making 30%, and that is someone who really has their chops together. Some of them make killer returns beyond that but that's rare and certainly not consistent. With intraday trading nobody keeps any numbers on that it seems, so its virtually impossible to have any business model. Sort of like predicting album sales for a band.
Here's then a likely scenario:
Year one you break even, maybe are slightly positive. You have a chance.
Year two you suffer a few drawdowns, are getting better but your income is still uneven.
Year three you suffer less drawdowns...
etc.
So basically, you really have to plan for at least two-three years of alternate income sources to keep yourself alive, unless you start with an account well into six figures from what I'm getting. That means you won't be 100% committed to your trading because you're going to have to have a second job. Like it or not your energy will be divided, you'll come to the desk more tired, distracted...
In the beginning you're probably lucky if you can squeeze 10% net for the whole year (so if you have 100k, that's 10K), and eventually you get to 50%, etc. We're assuming an intraday strategy.
The biggest difficulty here is that there's no predictable rate of return. One guy can pull just ahead of the S&P 500, the next one does 200% or more.
With a regular retail business you can do the math and come to an approximation of what your IRR is, say by year one I should be making X dollars, year two, etc. You can be off, but usually it falls into a range of predictability.
With trading its almost like throwing a dart into the dark. Are you going to be just beating treasuries for three years, are you going to blow it all four times before you start beating t bills, or are you going to turn $1000 to $1M in six months?
I hear with swing trading you kick A when you're making 30%, and that is someone who really has their chops together. Some of them make killer returns beyond that but that's rare and certainly not consistent. With intraday trading nobody keeps any numbers on that it seems, so its virtually impossible to have any business model. Sort of like predicting album sales for a band.
Similar to another suggestion, I think it is a keen idea to live in a different time zone than the one you are trading.
For instance, if you trade the NYSE it would be smart to live in CA or better yet Alaska. You could trade starting around 5 am or so .. trade for just 4 hrs and then go do another job.
In that same sense, my plan is to trade European markets in that I live in the Eastern time zone.
Conceptually, there is nothing "impossible" or "unrealistic" about pursuing two careers at once and then making the jump when you can.
My day job is actually an asset. I get benefits, I can support my family, nobody notices the difference and I'm as focused as a guy working fulltime while getting an MBA.
Tired maybe, but going to bed at 8 pm, the same as the kiddies, actually will make me a better Daddy, a better husband, a better trader and a better employee. Win-win-win-win.
For instance, if you trade the NYSE it would be smart to live in CA or better yet Alaska. You could trade starting around 5 am or so .. trade for just 4 hrs and then go do another job.
In that same sense, my plan is to trade European markets in that I live in the Eastern time zone.
Conceptually, there is nothing "impossible" or "unrealistic" about pursuing two careers at once and then making the jump when you can.
My day job is actually an asset. I get benefits, I can support my family, nobody notices the difference and I'm as focused as a guy working fulltime while getting an MBA.
Tired maybe, but going to bed at 8 pm, the same as the kiddies, actually will make me a better Daddy, a better husband, a better trader and a better employee. Win-win-win-win.
Next month I turn 30. I've lived with my parents for 4 years working nights and studying/trading the markets during the day. I have been unable to balance both. I am not capable of working full-time at night and then turning around to focus on trading in the morning. I don't know if I am too lazy, lack the self-discipline or simply not intelligent enough. I now know that I will have to give every part of me to trading to have a chance.
I'm getting to the age where I feel like I should have made something of myself. I have no offspring to support. I've saved up a little over 100k for trading and living expenses for the next 2 years.
Two weeks ago my car was totaled in a head on collision. I need a new car but I am paralyzed between the cars that I want and the cars I can really afford.
Additionally I've been looking at houses. I would love to take advantage of the $8k tax credit and have my own place.
Additionally I would love to prepare to enter a quantitative finance program in 2011.
So, I have 100k. I desire to be a successful trader and everything that goes with it. I also feel it is time to buy a home, I need a car, and I want to continue my education.
I am paralyzed and I fear that I am not going to make it. Ten years ago, I was certain I would be successful at whatever I chose. Looking ahead now to where I might be when I'm 40, I am certain of nothing. I really don't think I will make it. All there is left to do is try.
I'm getting to the age where I feel like I should have made something of myself. I have no offspring to support. I've saved up a little over 100k for trading and living expenses for the next 2 years.
Two weeks ago my car was totaled in a head on collision. I need a new car but I am paralyzed between the cars that I want and the cars I can really afford.
Additionally I've been looking at houses. I would love to take advantage of the $8k tax credit and have my own place.
Additionally I would love to prepare to enter a quantitative finance program in 2011.
So, I have 100k. I desire to be a successful trader and everything that goes with it. I also feel it is time to buy a home, I need a car, and I want to continue my education.
I am paralyzed and I fear that I am not going to make it. Ten years ago, I was certain I would be successful at whatever I chose. Looking ahead now to where I might be when I'm 40, I am certain of nothing. I really don't think I will make it. All there is left to do is try.
You know, you are always scared to give advice to a stranger, but if I was 30 yo, single, trying to become a trader, etc, I a house payment wuddnt be high on my list. I'll tell you something else, when I did decide to buy a home w/o a family, it would be a 3- or 4-plex that I could basically live for gree & let the tenants pay the mortgage & expenses. A SFR doesnt produce much income if you decide to rent it. I can tell you, financial responsibilities have crushed almost as many dreams as bad relationships.
Burnout is a big risk - I've hit the wall before working & trading FT... My daughter is learning to trade now & she sometimes shows up a few minutes past 6:30 am, which pisses me off. I am paying her to learn to trade, so I had to tell her to be here on time or go get a mundane job at the f-ing grocery store.
Maybe you could commit to trading 3 days a week, or possibly only 2, even if you are a bit tired. Even if I feel like dogshit, I rarely miss the market open & almost never if I have trades on. Laying in bed whenever you want & blowing off trading doesn't strike me as conducive to success... Maybe you can catch some winks when you get home in the morning & specialize in trading the last hour?
just some random thoughts.
Burnout is a big risk - I've hit the wall before working & trading FT... My daughter is learning to trade now & she sometimes shows up a few minutes past 6:30 am, which pisses me off. I am paying her to learn to trade, so I had to tell her to be here on time or go get a mundane job at the f-ing grocery store.
Maybe you could commit to trading 3 days a week, or possibly only 2, even if you are a bit tired. Even if I feel like dogshit, I rarely miss the market open & almost never if I have trades on. Laying in bed whenever you want & blowing off trading doesn't strike me as conducive to success... Maybe you can catch some winks when you get home in the morning & specialize in trading the last hour?
just some random thoughts.
I disagree with this. I believe that: you can have two jobs at once (or three, or more). You should have only one career. You will have priority conflicts. In the end you may fail miserably in both. A job is a job: exchange your labor (time) for money. Career should be something that you at least are interested to do (if not passionate about it). It takes a lot more than the working hours to become "good" in your chosen career.