Handling the psychological part of being a full-time trader/investor
- Thread starter tmhy
- Start date
you need to familiarize yourself with the purposes of markets. markets are the grease that underpins all economic activity. you need to read in depth up on the subject, particularly the role of markets in different economic systems, capitalism, socialism and communism. furthermore knowledge of the the role of markets in price discovery is essential. how do you expect that businesses are built if not for investing. how do businesses value their businesses and are able to cash out if not for markets.
my guess your issue, of social usefulness, is with the time horizon of trading vs. investing. if you read up on the subject of the importance price transparency you will likely change your views.
Last edited:
Greetings T, in response to your missive:
You Said: - How would society view someone who is still reasonably young (early 40s) and quits his job to become a full-time investor?
Response: I believe that some of your concerns are well founded. However in consideration of the state of mind which would ponder to ask these type of questions, I’m compelled to ask the following question:
Q- Why are you are even considering Fulltime Investing? Since investing is not necessarily considered a fulltime activity such as Daytrading, why do you “see” it as a fulltime activity? What is to stop you from continuing on with your current level of highly profitable “investing” activity, and still keeping your current employment?
You Said: I do not view investing highly as a socially useful activity? - How do you answer relatives who will be surprised at a person who quits your job and staying home all day picking stocks? I don't feel comfortable revealing my financial condition. Neither do I want them to think I am not able to find a proper job and resorting to investing as a final resort. "Why doesn't this guy find a proper job and contribute to society instead of staying at home all day clicking buy and sell?" Don't want people to think I am a loser.
Response: Since I assume you are already generating a good income from your "investing", in future are you going to be trading for the benefit of “Society and Other People”, or are you going to trade to provide for the ongoing needs and wants of you and yours? You need to be very clear on this point. If you are worried about what the PC Police in and outside of your family think,....then who are you really living for,....it’s your life…isn’t it?
You Said: Little useful stuff is created from the buying and selling of securities in the secondary market.
Response: This is a really curious question because, how can you call all those little “green piece$ of paper” with dead Presidents on them that you carry in your wallet, as being of little use to anyone? You need to get some clear perspective here. You currently have a job whose purpose is working for those little “green pieces of paper”, and not necessarily the product that goes out of the door of the company. The thing that goes out the door is a necessary “By-Product”, but your “Prime Objective” as a provider for your family is the little “green pieces of paper”. How you legally come to get those little “green pieces of paper” is a personal preference,…never forget that. And so long as you can continue to legally provide for the wants and needs of your family with your investing activities,…who gives a tinkers damn what “they” think? Other people have chosen their way,…and you have chosen your way,…who cares what they believe about “righteousness” of their way, and "question the legitimacy" of your way?
You Said: - Investing is a lonely activity. I operate alone. When I have a job, I still have a group of friends and colleagues to talk to. After I plunge into full-time investing, the loneliness is going to be acute.
Response: If you really need “other people” to be around when you work, you may want to seriously reconsider this career choice at this time. Trading is essentially a solitary activity, in so far as, its your decisions and your decisions alone which need to be expressed in the market while trading. For most Trading Professionals, having other people around can be a big time mental distraction at worst,...and an unnecessary time waster at the least. Most Professional Traders are fiercely independent types,......and we like to keep it that way.
(Note: However for myself, ET "other people" is mostly entertaining, and on a very few rare occasions, a Gold Mine of Knowledge and Experiences......smile.)
You Said: - Am I setting a good example to my kids? "Dad is always staying at home. He is always telling me to work hard and yet he just quits his job to do his own thing. His so-called passion. Why can't I quit school to do my own thing and play computer whole day?" Will my children work less hard in life as a result? Will my children look down on me?
Response: If your company asked you to “telecommute” from home everyday from now on, for a nice pay increase, would your kids think any less of you because you decided to work in your underwear everyday? And as far as your kids asking this question is concerned; "Why can't I quit school to do my own thing and play computer whole day?", I’m sure Bill Gates parents can provide you with a good answer today, because that is precisely what little Billy did. You must understand that we are living in a new and dynamic age in history right now, and the old rules don’t necessarily apply anymore. Beyond HS, most types of education aren't a success guarantee anymore, not that they ever were, but choosing and pursuing the right "skill set" for today's market sure places the odds on your side!
In my opinion, if it is truly “inside of you” to become a “Fulltime Anything” working on your own for yourself, then nothing said here could possibly stop you. If you still have deep lingering nagging doubts, then its obviously not your time as yet.
In any case, you have my best wishes for continued success. And my Xmas gift to you is the following saying below, which after I too quit my high paying job, provided me with much mental comfort during trying times over the years.
“It is better to go wrong in freedom,....then to go right in chains”
Hope this helps.
KDASFTG
You Said: - How would society view someone who is still reasonably young (early 40s) and quits his job to become a full-time investor?
Response: I believe that some of your concerns are well founded. However in consideration of the state of mind which would ponder to ask these type of questions, I’m compelled to ask the following question:
Q- Why are you are even considering Fulltime Investing? Since investing is not necessarily considered a fulltime activity such as Daytrading, why do you “see” it as a fulltime activity? What is to stop you from continuing on with your current level of highly profitable “investing” activity, and still keeping your current employment?
You Said: I do not view investing highly as a socially useful activity? - How do you answer relatives who will be surprised at a person who quits your job and staying home all day picking stocks? I don't feel comfortable revealing my financial condition. Neither do I want them to think I am not able to find a proper job and resorting to investing as a final resort. "Why doesn't this guy find a proper job and contribute to society instead of staying at home all day clicking buy and sell?" Don't want people to think I am a loser.
Response: Since I assume you are already generating a good income from your "investing", in future are you going to be trading for the benefit of “Society and Other People”, or are you going to trade to provide for the ongoing needs and wants of you and yours? You need to be very clear on this point. If you are worried about what the PC Police in and outside of your family think,....then who are you really living for,....it’s your life…isn’t it?
You Said: Little useful stuff is created from the buying and selling of securities in the secondary market.
Response: This is a really curious question because, how can you call all those little “green piece$ of paper” with dead Presidents on them that you carry in your wallet, as being of little use to anyone? You need to get some clear perspective here. You currently have a job whose purpose is working for those little “green pieces of paper”, and not necessarily the product that goes out of the door of the company. The thing that goes out the door is a necessary “By-Product”, but your “Prime Objective” as a provider for your family is the little “green pieces of paper”. How you legally come to get those little “green pieces of paper” is a personal preference,…never forget that. And so long as you can continue to legally provide for the wants and needs of your family with your investing activities,…who gives a tinkers damn what “they” think? Other people have chosen their way,…and you have chosen your way,…who cares what they believe about “righteousness” of their way, and "question the legitimacy" of your way?
You Said: - Investing is a lonely activity. I operate alone. When I have a job, I still have a group of friends and colleagues to talk to. After I plunge into full-time investing, the loneliness is going to be acute.
Response: If you really need “other people” to be around when you work, you may want to seriously reconsider this career choice at this time. Trading is essentially a solitary activity, in so far as, its your decisions and your decisions alone which need to be expressed in the market while trading. For most Trading Professionals, having other people around can be a big time mental distraction at worst,...and an unnecessary time waster at the least. Most Professional Traders are fiercely independent types,......and we like to keep it that way.
(Note: However for myself, ET "other people" is mostly entertaining, and on a very few rare occasions, a Gold Mine of Knowledge and Experiences......smile.)
You Said: - Am I setting a good example to my kids? "Dad is always staying at home. He is always telling me to work hard and yet he just quits his job to do his own thing. His so-called passion. Why can't I quit school to do my own thing and play computer whole day?" Will my children work less hard in life as a result? Will my children look down on me?
Response: If your company asked you to “telecommute” from home everyday from now on, for a nice pay increase, would your kids think any less of you because you decided to work in your underwear everyday? And as far as your kids asking this question is concerned; "Why can't I quit school to do my own thing and play computer whole day?", I’m sure Bill Gates parents can provide you with a good answer today, because that is precisely what little Billy did. You must understand that we are living in a new and dynamic age in history right now, and the old rules don’t necessarily apply anymore. Beyond HS, most types of education aren't a success guarantee anymore, not that they ever were, but choosing and pursuing the right "skill set" for today's market sure places the odds on your side!
In my opinion, if it is truly “inside of you” to become a “Fulltime Anything” working on your own for yourself, then nothing said here could possibly stop you. If you still have deep lingering nagging doubts, then its obviously not your time as yet.
In any case, you have my best wishes for continued success. And my Xmas gift to you is the following saying below, which after I too quit my high paying job, provided me with much mental comfort during trying times over the years.
“It is better to go wrong in freedom,....then to go right in chains”
Hope this helps.
KDASFTG
Last edited:
true, but then again most Americans also don't believe in the Bill of Rights.
Trading started as a hobby for me and even though I might work 90 hours a week on it, still a hobby. To be honest, I never knew I had so many mental issues I had to work through, depressions size of a mountain with very few "ups". I basically became a hermit in a cave when I wasn't at work, weekends I never knew what time of day it was, vacations flew by behind my computer, parties I never went. I would try my best to watch my kid's outside activities, set alarms but even when I was there, mind was not there. I have known so many ended up getting divorced, taking on addictions of drugs or booze to feel some type of happiness, cause when you losing every week or months, you not very happy. You can become suicidal as you keep working through of learning how to trade whether day or short term trading.
I didn't quit my "day' job till I accumulated 3 million taxable in bank and nice 401k, always had self doubt as past 7 years was luck, I had seventeen years with gov't and didn't see me doing another 15 till I hit 55yo, I started to learn day trading in 1985 and took me 7 years of hell to get "ok" at it. If I could do it all over again, I never go into day trading as I lost 7 years of taking money I was making in stock account to loss it all in day trading and even more. I wish I changed jobs and just kept doing longer term trading and buying more rental houses, the big money is in longer term, less commissions and you have a life with people and YOU know who your family is.
I got to become a nomad, don't care much for people as I have learned people hate you if you have more than them, only the closest of friends knows what I do and anyone else I tell them I am wholesaler and make pennies on the dollar, which is true, we all trade markets for pennies or even less.
Huge difference between trading and investing, investing is like over the weekend and trading can be nineteen hours a day or more. You think too much of what others will say, I just turned sixty and don't care what anyone says about me, they not me nor lived in my shoes. And I don't care how others live so long as they don't bother me.
You looking outstanding to your kids, you worked before and you started a new business, the American way of getting ahead, you no longer working for the man, you are the man.
You can donate to homeless shelters and like I go hang out there few times a week and prepare meals, wash dishes for several hours, giving back in your way. Nothing passive about this.
People always ask me how am I doing, I look at them with my disgusting face and say "things could be better", sometimes they join along as I always say that, damn they could be better for everyone.
Listen, being home is ok, but once you get done trading and you making living from it, it gets old quickly, I spend time making new systems or help friends do what I do, but if you can design a system, automate and have a job to love outside of trading, way to go. And once you automate it, stress slides on by, and now you have so much extra time....
And these are MY opinions based on my life, so there are thousands of ways to live your life and don't care what people going to think, they have enough problems dealing with their own life. Your kids will love you regardless of what you do cause you will always be Dad.
I didn't quit my "day' job till I accumulated 3 million taxable in bank and nice 401k, always had self doubt as past 7 years was luck, I had seventeen years with gov't and didn't see me doing another 15 till I hit 55yo, I started to learn day trading in 1985 and took me 7 years of hell to get "ok" at it. If I could do it all over again, I never go into day trading as I lost 7 years of taking money I was making in stock account to loss it all in day trading and even more. I wish I changed jobs and just kept doing longer term trading and buying more rental houses, the big money is in longer term, less commissions and you have a life with people and YOU know who your family is.
I got to become a nomad, don't care much for people as I have learned people hate you if you have more than them, only the closest of friends knows what I do and anyone else I tell them I am wholesaler and make pennies on the dollar, which is true, we all trade markets for pennies or even less.
Huge difference between trading and investing, investing is like over the weekend and trading can be nineteen hours a day or more. You think too much of what others will say, I just turned sixty and don't care what anyone says about me, they not me nor lived in my shoes. And I don't care how others live so long as they don't bother me.
You looking outstanding to your kids, you worked before and you started a new business, the American way of getting ahead, you no longer working for the man, you are the man.
You can donate to homeless shelters and like I go hang out there few times a week and prepare meals, wash dishes for several hours, giving back in your way. Nothing passive about this.
People always ask me how am I doing, I look at them with my disgusting face and say "things could be better", sometimes they join along as I always say that, damn they could be better for everyone.
Listen, being home is ok, but once you get done trading and you making living from it, it gets old quickly, I spend time making new systems or help friends do what I do, but if you can design a system, automate and have a job to love outside of trading, way to go. And once you automate it, stress slides on by, and now you have so much extra time....
And these are MY opinions based on my life, so there are thousands of ways to live your life and don't care what people going to think, they have enough problems dealing with their own life. Your kids will love you regardless of what you do cause you will always be Dad.
If you're really successful, I don't think you'll have any issues. If you're fighting to get by and trying hard just to compete with your salary in your old job, you'll have issues.
If that's true, then there are a lot of people who like to lose money.
More likely it means some people trade for reasons other than to make money. eg excitement.
Thank you very much for all the replies. There are so many good ones that I cannot pay respect by replying to all of them one by one.
A few things about myself. I have more than 10 years of trading/investing experience. During the early years, it was all about paying school fees despite working and learning very hard. I was like a start-up entrepreneur who worked his guts out but still lost money. In the past several years, things got better. In the past 2 years, it got to the point that the time I need to spend on the financial markets has grown so much that I need to make a choice between my full-time job as an engineer or part-time job as speculator. If I continue as an engineer, I see stagnant prospects ahead. What keeps me back is the social pressure and the self-disrespect that I feel as an investor. Of course, there is always a risk that I will earn far less or even go into the red as an investor. Looking at my past track record and savings buffer, it is a calculated risk within my psychological tolerance. I see brighter money prospects if I convert to become a full-time speculator. On the work aspect, I have no doubt I will enjoy the work as a speculator although I enjoy engineering work too.
As a speculator, I have problems getting over the lack of respect for myself. Therefore, I expect it to be a problem when I transit to become a full-time speculator. I believe it is not how much money a person has that commands respect but the way he earns his money that determines whether he deserves respect. An entrepreneur or engineer who creates products/services that improves the standard of living of others deserves respect. A speculator who gets rich from the follies of others in the market deserves less respect because he takes advantage of the stupid but does not create much useful stuff in the process. Nevertheless, it is still an honest living. Sometimes, I cannot help but feel the guilt that speculators can earn so much staying at home simply clicking buy and sell while others work so hard with their hands yet earn so much lesser. I am full of respect for janitors and blue-collar workers who get their hands dirty. I do not want to sound hypocritical. I emphasize that I surely do not want to exchange place with them, respect or not. Never.
I am a very frugal person and can be absolutely happy with a minimalist lifestyle. I have no problems living with 3 cheap meals a day, cheap clothes and a small shelter above me for the rest of my life. This makes me look like a loser. If I transit to become a full-time speculator, I feel tempted to spend more just to create the impression that I am a winner. Yet, it sounds so stupid and my wife would never allow that.
Given my "loser" image as a result of my frugality, I can imagine what some of the more nasty folks will say when I quit my job to become a full-time speculator. "Have you just lost your job and are you unable to find a new one? Too proud to find a lousier job and would rather be an anti-social hermit? Using the label full-time speculator as a cover?" Many here have mentioned that once you have proven your success as a speculator with the money rolling in, your detractors will change their minds and spread their arms to embrace you. For the sake of discussion if you don't mind me sounding boastful, I believe I already am a fairly successful speculator. However, I find it socially inappropriate to show my past records and my financial balance sheet to my detractors to prove my point. I can tell the financial truth to my family but not outside as those are private information. Furthermore, it makes me look like a show-off.
When I express these reservations to others, the most common reply was "You care too much about what people think about you." This is a weakness that cannot be avoided, at least by me. Humans are social creatures. It is impossible to totally ignore what others think unless you are a machine.
For those who have become full-time investors, what considerations did you go through then? How was the transition period like and what were the challenges?
A few things about myself. I have more than 10 years of trading/investing experience. During the early years, it was all about paying school fees despite working and learning very hard. I was like a start-up entrepreneur who worked his guts out but still lost money. In the past several years, things got better. In the past 2 years, it got to the point that the time I need to spend on the financial markets has grown so much that I need to make a choice between my full-time job as an engineer or part-time job as speculator. If I continue as an engineer, I see stagnant prospects ahead. What keeps me back is the social pressure and the self-disrespect that I feel as an investor. Of course, there is always a risk that I will earn far less or even go into the red as an investor. Looking at my past track record and savings buffer, it is a calculated risk within my psychological tolerance. I see brighter money prospects if I convert to become a full-time speculator. On the work aspect, I have no doubt I will enjoy the work as a speculator although I enjoy engineering work too.
As a speculator, I have problems getting over the lack of respect for myself. Therefore, I expect it to be a problem when I transit to become a full-time speculator. I believe it is not how much money a person has that commands respect but the way he earns his money that determines whether he deserves respect. An entrepreneur or engineer who creates products/services that improves the standard of living of others deserves respect. A speculator who gets rich from the follies of others in the market deserves less respect because he takes advantage of the stupid but does not create much useful stuff in the process. Nevertheless, it is still an honest living. Sometimes, I cannot help but feel the guilt that speculators can earn so much staying at home simply clicking buy and sell while others work so hard with their hands yet earn so much lesser. I am full of respect for janitors and blue-collar workers who get their hands dirty. I do not want to sound hypocritical. I emphasize that I surely do not want to exchange place with them, respect or not. Never.
I am a very frugal person and can be absolutely happy with a minimalist lifestyle. I have no problems living with 3 cheap meals a day, cheap clothes and a small shelter above me for the rest of my life. This makes me look like a loser. If I transit to become a full-time speculator, I feel tempted to spend more just to create the impression that I am a winner. Yet, it sounds so stupid and my wife would never allow that.
Given my "loser" image as a result of my frugality, I can imagine what some of the more nasty folks will say when I quit my job to become a full-time speculator. "Have you just lost your job and are you unable to find a new one? Too proud to find a lousier job and would rather be an anti-social hermit? Using the label full-time speculator as a cover?" Many here have mentioned that once you have proven your success as a speculator with the money rolling in, your detractors will change their minds and spread their arms to embrace you. For the sake of discussion if you don't mind me sounding boastful, I believe I already am a fairly successful speculator. However, I find it socially inappropriate to show my past records and my financial balance sheet to my detractors to prove my point. I can tell the financial truth to my family but not outside as those are private information. Furthermore, it makes me look like a show-off.
When I express these reservations to others, the most common reply was "You care too much about what people think about you." This is a weakness that cannot be avoided, at least by me. Humans are social creatures. It is impossible to totally ignore what others think unless you are a machine.
For those who have become full-time investors, what considerations did you go through then? How was the transition period like and what were the challenges?