haha A flood killed the dinasours?

Quote from destroyer:

I'll tell you why you don't know how. What you're describing here is not the theory of evolution, it doesn't even remotely resemble the theory of evolution. You have to understand what the theory is really about, then you'll know. Let me try to explain it, I'll go out of my way to put it in as simple terms as possible, so even a third-grader would understand.

Let's do a simple example that you can recreate on your own computer. Say we start with a number, 198472836, and you want to turn this into 999999999. What you do is, you start by reproducing the number 198472836 with small, completely random variations, several times. Now if you state (computationally) that you want to keep all reproductions that includes more 9's than the parent number and let them reproduce once more, you'll start to see a change. After one reproduction your number might for instance be 198479896. This will now be reproduced instead of the initial number. After reproducing this one several times, one of it's successors might be 199499896. So the others gets discarded and this one is reproduced. After repeating this process several times, eventually you will end up with the number 999999999.

All you had to do is:
1. Reproduce the initial number with small random variations, and
2. Keep and reproduce only those reproductions who are best fit to serve a certain purpose (being all 9's in this instance).

So far so good, right? We know it works as these basic principles are being used extensively in a wide spectre of scientific areas for optimization purposes, and in artificial intelligence. If you still doubt it, you can write a simple program that does this process for yourself, and see that it works. Just a few lines of code.

Now let's take a look at nature. We know for a fact, that when something in nature is reproduced, small, random changes (errors) occur in the reproduced genetic material. This happens without exception. We also know that in various places in nature, various traits gives a larger chance of survival. The parallels we can draw from the numbers example to this should be quite clear: The environment in which a population lives determines what will and what will not be kept and reproduced, just as we computationally decided to keep and reproduce numbers with as many 9's as possible in the numbers example.

Let's do a nature example. Say we have a large population of bunnies that are equally mixed white-, grey- and black furred, on an isolated island. At some point in history, eagles arrive at this island and they start hunting the bunnies. They have very good contrast vision, so they can easily spot the black and white bunnies, but they're having a hard time spotting the grey ones. So after a couple of generations, the white and black bunnies are reduced in numbers, while the grey ones have hardly been affected. The grey bunnies will reproduce more than their black and white counterparts. Another generation goes by, and the black and white bunnies are reduced even further. Eventually the bunnies will be almost all grey, with a few exceptions here and there.

Again, the terms are:
1. Reproduce the initial population with small random variations, and
2. Keep and reproduce only those reproductions who are best fit to serve a certain purpose (having a color that's not easily spotted by the eagles in this example).

This happens in only a few generations. You can imagine for yourself what kind of changes can take place over thousands of generations, or even millions of generations. You see, it's not the bird that decides what it should be. It's the combination of random reproduction and selection of the fittest that decides.

So, whether you believe that God created us and all the animals 6000 years ago or not, you understand that if we stay here on earth for say another five hundred million years, evolution will take place and the animals of this future world will be fairly unrecognizable to us. Evolution is an inescapable fact.

This destroys what destroyer wrote. Consider X(0), X(1), ... X(n),.... X(k) is state of world at epoch k. You described a theory of movement from X(K) to X(K+1), but you forgot the most important issue: How did X(0) came about, and what is X(0)?

God created X(0), not theory can explain X(0). Evolution theories/ etc spend time on movement from X(k) to X(k+1), to hide the real issue: X(0).

So it is about the initial state. That is where God comes in, not to mention X(k) to X(k+1) transition is easily theorized but never tested to be true.
 
Quote from tradingjournals:

This destroy all what you wrote. Consider X(0), X(1), ... X(n), ...
X(k) is state of world at epoch k. You describe a theory of movement from X(K) to X(K+1), but you forgot the most important point: How did X(0) came about?

God create X(0). That is what you do not seem to comprehend. Evolution/theories spend time on X(k) to X(k+1), to cover the core issue: X(0).

The exact same thing can be said about god. God did not create X(0) because god was already there. The argument then becomes who created god? And the infinite regression continues...
 
Quote from Kassz007:

The exact same thing can be said about god. God did not create X(0) because god was already there. The argument then becomes who created god? And the infinite regression continues...

There are two cases related to your question (in either case we assume god exist otherwise your question cannot be posed:

1. Concept of time applies to god: your question would be applicable in this case, and it is a real issue

2. The concept of time does not apply to God, which means God transcends time. It also means God is eternal, and does not have antecedents, nor successors, associates, etc.

Consequences:

If God is to exist, God cannot be an object, a human, a theory, etc. This should easily remove a lot of religious conceptions such as Jesus is God, and the other Gods out there. With regard to Jesus, this does not mean that original Christianity is not a true religion. It would rather mean that current Christianity conception is not correct at least partially. My personal view is that Jesus maybe a messenger of God to humans, but he is not God.


Therefore if God is to exist, you got essentially just two conceptions of God that are solid: the jewish concept of God and the muslim concept of God. They refer to the same God (God of abraham) by the names of Hashem and Allah.

One issue with the Jewish conception of God is that God is the God of Israelites. This does not make sense if it means that he is not a god of the other creatures including non israelite humans.

The only God I have not found yet an inconsistency in its description is the God described in the Quran. It is a god of everyone and everything (including animals, creatures, plants, planets, etc).
 
Quote from tradingjournals:

This destroys what destroyer wrote. Consider X(0), X(1), ... X(n),.... X(k) is state of world at epoch k. You described a theory of movement from X(K) to X(K+1), but you forgot the most important issue: How did X(0) came about, and what is X(0)?

God created X(0), not theory can explain X(0). Evolution theories/ etc spend time on movement from X(k) to X(k+1), to hide the real issue: X(0).

So it is about the initial state. That is where God comes in, not to mention X(k) to X(k+1) transition is easily theorized but never tested to be true.
No it doesn't, I didn't mention the Big Bang or how the first cell, or even matter, came to being. All I did was try and explain how evolution works and why we have evolution of the species on this planet as we speak regardless of how or when everything started.

The issue of X(0) is a different issue, separate from that of evolution. I see no point in debating how it all started as none of as has got enough information at this point.
 
Quote from jem:

1. thats very good... and why I agree there is some form of evolution.
2. evolution does not conflict with my theology.
3. The bible does not say we are only 5000 years old.
4. But my question is is this. Given when the big bang happened was there enough matter and time in the known universe for things to evolved the way they have?
5. Given the initial starting point of the big bang... do you find it odd that the cosmological constant and some many other constants are tuned just right to support life?
6. Are there many top scientists who come to different conclusions?
7. Do you believe in infinite other universes or just ours?
I'm not debunking theology, nor am trying to prove that the bible is wrong. I was merely trying to do what the educational system in wherever mister peiltraveler is from had failed to do for him.

As for your other questions, we simply do not have enough information about the subjects, so my guess would be as good (or worthless) as anybody's.
 
Quote from destroyer:

No it doesn't, I didn't mention the Big Bang or how the first cell, or even matter, came to being. All I did was try and explain how evolution works and why we have evolution of the species on this planet as we speak regardless of how or when everything started.

The issue of X(0) is a different issue, separate from that of evolution. I see no point in debating how it all started as none of as has got enough information at this point.
Yea but…. it’s because there is true and scientifically provable evolution of the species, means there’s a magical mystic beardy sky wizard conjuring it all up.
 
Quote from stu:

Yea but…. it’s because there is true and scientifically provable evolution of the species, means there’s a magical mystic beardy sky wizard conjuring it all up.

When you can show that it is reasonable to say that all this got here by chance... you might have an argument to put down people who suspect there was a Creator.

As of now top scientists are starting to acknowledge there is no way this happened by chance -- if there is only one universe.

You can see why the poster right above you backed off the science once the correct questions were asked. He clearly has a scientific brain.
 
Quote from destroyer:

No it doesn't, I didn't mention the Big Bang or how the first cell, or even matter, came to being. All I did was try and explain how evolution works and why we have evolution of the species on this planet as we speak regardless of how or when everything started.

The issue of X(0) is a different issue, separate from that of evolution. I see no point in debating how it all started as none of as has got enough information at this point.

There are people who try to use evolution to say that what we see is not a creation of God, and someone did it on this thread. The notion that there is evolution is not something special or unusual. It is part of nature, and there is nothing special in it. A virus has evolution as a vital part: it transitions which makes it hard to fight.

Here some other things: everyone knows there is Gravity on earth. It is a force that we know exists. why there is pulling and how is it done? In science they model gravity, but they do not know the force.

So in addition to X(0) of the things that change, there is also the things that do not change (like gravity). Where do the forces that do not change come from?

When earth rotate, you expect someone to be throw out of earth. Instead they are pulled. I want to know about the pulling, and its origins. Every physicist I asked this question either did not answer, or confused modeling the force with the force. (the guy who confused the force with the modeling of the force is not a physicist but he may say that he has a a degree).
 
Quote from jem:

When you can show that it is reasonable to say that all this got here by chance... you might have an argument to put down people who suspect there was a Creator.

As of now top scientists are starting to acknowledge there is no way this happened by chance -- if there is only one universe.

You can see why the poster right above you backed off the science once the correct questions were asked. He clearly has a scientific brain.
If you're going call natural circumstances - chance, then anyone can show how the universe runs on "chance".

There is science which proves natural circumstances - "chance" happens in Evolution. destroyer was being honest, not trying to pretend there was equivalent science to prove origins.

Whereas you being deceitful , try to drag up your own personal version of fantasy science after having altered what one particular scientist said. You clearly have no scientific brain.

This thread's OP is the same old outdated creationist wet dream.
Because science works, people must always choose without thinking, a giant cloud goblin called God is the ultimate magical Cosmic Creator, because the Bible Book of Magical Spells says so. Even in the face of any other explanations whatsoever no matter how compelling.

Hard not to smile - the creationists' dilema in the 21st century. Natural conditions or a sky wizard.
 
Quote from tradingjournals:



The only God I have not found yet an inconsistency in its description is the God described in the Quran. It is a god of everyone and everything (including animals, creatures, plants, planets, etc).

Allah is god?
 
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