Goldman created ICE as Dark Pool vehicle for Oil manipulation

Do you see indictments for Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley for energy manipulation?

  • Yes, indictments

    Votes: 13 39.4%
  • No indictments

    Votes: 20 60.6%

  • Total voters
    33
  • Poll closed .
Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley, were founding partners of ICE. This exchange was probably created to hide speculative positions in energy futures without any oversight by the US regulators - said Greenberger.

Do you see indictments for conspiracy to corner the energy market by manipulating and hiding energy futures for GS and MS ?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/06/17/broadcasts/main4188620.shtml

(CBS) As gas prices skyrocket, attention has turned to public "pits," where brokers trade "oil futures" - the right to buy or sell crude oil at a specific price, on a future date.

But far away from the hue and cry, hundreds of millions of barrels of oil futures contracts are traded electronically every day, CBS News chief investigative correspondent Armen Keteyian reports.

More than 30 percent, experts say, exchanged in so-called "dark markets," the exact size and scope unknown to U.S. regulators.

"If you can trade out of the sight of U.S. regulators, you can manipulate these markets," said Michael Greenberger, a former top staffer at the Commodities Futures Trading Commission, or CFTC, which regulates the trading of commodities like oil in this country.

He recently told Congress that speculation is placing a huge premium on the price of oil.

"How much per barrel?" Keteyian asked.

"Well, there have been various estimates - anywhere from 25 percent to 50 percent," Greenberger said.

"People can actually corner the market and drive up the price," said Sen. Maria Cantwell, D-Wash. "When there is no policeman on the beat, you know that crime can go up."

More and more fingers are pointing at one of the least-known but most powerful foreign exchanges - the InterContinental Exchange, or ICE.

By the end of 2007, the all-electronic exchange accounted for nearly a 50 percent market share of all global oil futures contracts, a total of 138.5 million contracts - up 49 percent from 2006.

Today it boasts more than 2,100 individual traders representing virtually all of the major players in oil - banks, hedge funds, energy companies, investment giants.

And according to a securities filing, two of those giants, Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley, were founding partners of ICE.

"The fact that they started this shows the intent of where they wanted to go," Greenberger said. "Which was to trade crude oil and energy products without any police in the United States supervising it."

That's because it's considered a foreign exchange. Taking advantage of a loophole created by the CFTC, the company says its "energy futures business" is conducted in London, it is not subject to U.S. laws. Over strong criticism, the CFTC agreed.

All this despite the fact ICE headquarters are on the fifth floor of a building in Atlanta, it's primary data center in Chicago, and nearly all its trades settled in U.S. dollars.

"It is a charade, and ... it defies explanation," Greenberger said.

In a statement, ICE CEO Jeffrey Sprecher told CBS News that ICE is committed to providing "the same visibility in our oil markets that exists for U.S. Exchanges," and that ICE Futures Europe is "fully regulated" by the British government.

But British financial authorities are notoriously lax.

Now Congress and others are asking just how much of the crude oil futures market is being manipulated by either excessive buying designed to drive up the price, or phony transactions that imply a supply problem that does not exist.

Today, under pressure, ICE finally agreed to impose stricter limits on certain trading, shedding some much needed light on the dark side of oil.


© MMVIII, CBS Interactive Inc. All Rights Reserved.
 
This is actually probably true, and the reason why GS met and beat earnings.

They are now going to have regulatory scrutiny like they've not experienced before if inflation keeps roaring, essential commodities don't break, and Bernanke remains in this unenviable position of not being able to raise rates, as the public gets angrier and angrier (while unemployment continues to rise).

This GS linked to commodity dark pool story is going to be the story for the next few months.
 
can someone explain exactly how this manipulation works? they are tradfing in private markets. so what? arbitrage ensures that prices are the same as the contracts traded at the exchange.
 
Quote from bidask:
can someone explain exactly how this manipulation works? they are tradfing in private markets. so what? arbitrage ensures that prices are the same as the contracts traded at the exchange.
Nobody here will be able to explain you that. These conspiracy clowns have no idea that there is a number of futures markets for crude each with underlying spot markets that Goldman doesn't control but who cares? :p
 
Quote from makloda:

Nobody here will be able to explain you that. These conspiracy clowns have no idea that there is a number of futures markets for crude each with underlying spot markets that Goldman doesn't control but who cares? :p



Michael Greenberger is a conspiracy nut?


" If you can trade out of the sight of U.S. regulators, you can manipulate these markets," said Michael Greenberger, a former top staffer at the Commodities Futures Trading Commission, or CFTC, which regulates the trading of commodities like oil in this country.

He recently told Congress that speculation is placing a huge premium on the price of oil.

"How much per barrel?" Keteyian asked.

"Well, there have been various estimates - anywhere from 25 percent to 50 percent," Greenberger said"
 
Quote from TheDudeofLife:
He recently told Congress that speculation is placing a huge premium on the price of oil.
Then why don't commercial oil companies not exploit this supposed market inefficiency (an artificially high price in the futures market compared to the spot market) and sell a couple months worth of oil supply right to the evil speculators? Simply hitting all the bids in the CL book?

If all this crude futures conspiracy BS were true then then futures would trade at a sizable premium to the spot price but they don't.
 
Quote from makloda:

Nobody here will be able to explain you that. These conspiracy clowns have no idea that there is a number of futures markets for crude each with underlying spot markets that Goldman doesn't control but who cares? :p

I second that. Also dark pools are usually designed to cross orders at or near the prevailing price anonymously so are not good environments for manipulation. The goal is to find liquidity without moving the price. At least that's what THEY want us to think.
 
Far from being designed to manipulate prices, ICE was instrumental in breaking the previously-antediluvian NYMEX's monopoly on certain North American energy futures markets, thereby dramatically reducing trading costs for crude.

ICE, and the CME's going electronic, are, in my opinion, the best things to happen to the US futures markets since their inception.
 
Quote from bidask:

can someone explain exactly how this manipulation works? they are tradfing in private markets. so what? arbitrage ensures that prices are the same as the contracts traded at the exchange.

The manipulation is clear..
Say a pension, endowment fund or some other large wad of cash wants to invest in crude..say they have 5 billion to put into it..

Goldman, or Merrill, or some other IB creates an index for these investors, and then sells the index to the client, and then, to hedge the position, BUYS crude or whatever futures contract required. They have to 'hedge', right?

Since the IB's are acting as AGENTS to the investors, the banks are classified as COMMERCIALS, and thus, have no position limits..

The swap loophole bullshit is all that needs to get closed for some kind of normalcy to be returned to the markets...

We should be trading ABOUT 70-90 in crude.

But the big banks have to make back their losses in the credit markets somehow..

This is manipulation and cornering at its finest...
 
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