god told me to post this here

Quote from axeman:

Hehehe.... love the biased wording here.


Here is what really happened:

The theists FAILED to keep me brainwashed.

The theists FAILED and I WON my intellectual freedom,
learning to think for myself.

peace

axeman
More...

How do you know that you were brainwashed? You have no fact to support that conclusion, just an opinion.

You won your intellectual freedom? How do you know that you didn't jail yourself within the limits of the human mind?

I am not saying you are wrong, just that you don't know, nor do I. You made a choice.

Fine, but why the hostility?
 
You are correct dgabriel, and I agree that the power of
positive thought can have a measurable effect on sick people.
I think most atheists would agree here, due to what you
said in your last sentence:

"It is true that clinically depressed people are given to illness more often and recover from illness more slowly than happy people. "



BUT these double blind studies are attempting to see if there
is any EXTERNAL supernatural forces at work here, as theists
claim.

However, these types of studies FAIL.
The Duke study was the largest of these studies, and shows
that prayer, when UNKNOWN to the patient, has NO effect.

So what can we conclude?
There is no rational reason to believe that prayer has any
power beyond human positive thinking.


peace

axeman




Quote from dgabriel:



GG, it is snide comments like that in the subject line that offend people.

Primitive cultures have practiced group healing prayer rituals for thousands of years for sick members of their tribes. They have believed that it aids the healing process. And it likely does have an effect on the psychological state of the ill person and may induce a stronger self-repair response in the individual.

So while you may think prayer does not invoke a supernatural healing force, it may help strengthen natural healing properties within the human body. And so people may find in prayer not just spiritual solace but inner physical strength. Any atheist should understand this.

It is true that clinically depressed people are given to illness more often and recover from illness more slowly than happy people.
More...
 
Quote from Gordon Gekko:
More...

If religious belief were unreasonable, it would be seen as such by the fields of mental and physical health. It is not viewed as unreasonable by the field of psychology, sociology, physiology, neurology, neuropathology, neurophysiology, biology, philosophy as a whole, or any other mainstream sciences that study human behavior.

Some practicioners may have opinions to the contrary, but at this point, those who practice belief in God are determined to be quite sane by all legal bodies and all major medical professional organizations.
 
I see. So read the following article, and then please
explain to me what is the difference between your god
and Carl Sagans dragon:

http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm


What is the difference between a god I cannot see, touch,
smell, feel, hear, verify, test, or measure in any way,
and an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire ???


How can I tell the difference between your god and
the fictional tooth fairy? I cannot.

I therefore can only conclude they are both fictions and only
exist in peoples imaginations.

If you claim that god is beyond human logic, and is not material
by definition, and you use these attributes to defend his
existence, then this amounts to just one big circular argument.

If there is no way for me to detect, test or measure, this so called god,
then as far as im concerned, he is on the same level as unicorns and the tooth fairy.


peace

axeman



Quote from ARogueTrader:



Do I have objective data to support my belief? Not with any instrumentation you posses, obviously. God is beyond the material by my definition, so how would I be able to measure God with material means? If the God of your understanding could be measured by limited material and limited intellectual means, then that is not the God of my understanding.

My stance on prayer is that it is between God and man, not between man and man. I pray, I ask to know Him better, to trust in His will, and God does what is best by my definition. I can choose to trust in His will or not, I can accept or reject. He has given me the power of acceptance or rejection.

I pray to God, the One God who only does what is best for everyone all the time. Best in the long run, not the short run.

There would be no need to petition God to do something that He is or isn't going to do anyway. To think I know more than God what is right in any particular material situation, is to try to put myself on God's level, which I try not to do. I pray to accept His will, it is that simple. I try to get out of the way of His work.

I cannot sincerely comment on what others do, I have no real point of reference, just opinion based in material logic, which doesn't really apply to Divine Mind.

A child looks at his parents and can't begin to understand them, yet judges that they don't love the child because the child is punished by them.

Yet when discussing God, people think they can apply their limited and finite tools to understand Him. Odd.
More...
 
Fallacy: Appeal to authority.


Once again proving that all your arguments are based
on fallacious reasoning.

If the majority were always right, the earth would still be flat :D


Do we consider children who believe in santa and the tooth
fairy as unreasonable? Of course not.

Lot's of people believe in all kinds of silliness, including
Miss Cleo :D But just because psychologists, etc, do NOT
consider them unreasonable, in NO WAY means that their belief is correct.

Your reasoning does not hold water.



peace

axeman




Quote from ARogueTrader:



If religious belief were unreasonable, it would be seen as such by the fields of mental and physical health. It is not viewed as unreasonable by the field of psychology, sociology, physiology, neurology, neuropathology, neurophysiology, biology, philosophy as a whole, or any other mainstream sciences that study human behavior.

Some practicioners may have opinions to the contrary, but at this point, those who practice belief in God are determined to be quite sane by all legal bodies and all major medical professional organizations.
More...
 
Quote from Gordon Gekko:


us ET atheists should have a name for our gang. i will be brainstorming....
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how about ETAA: EliteTrader Atheist Alliance

so far i think we have:

GG
LongShot
FPC
axeman
stu

feel free to add yourself to the list. :p
 
Quote from axeman:

I see. So read the following article, and then please
explain to me what is the difference between your god
and Carl Sagans dragon:

http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm


What is the difference between a god I cannot see, touch,
smell, feel, hear, verify, test, or measure in any way,
and an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire ???


How can I tell the difference between your god and
the fictional tooth fairy? I cannot.

I therefore can only conclude they are both fictions and only
exist in peoples imaginations.

If you claim that god is beyond human logic, and is not material
by definition, and you use these attributes to defend his
existence, then this amounts to just one big circular argument.

If there is no way for me to detect, test or measure, this so called god,
then as far as im concerned, he is on the same level as unicorns and the tooth fairy.


peace

axeman
More...
ARogueTrader, you are NOT going to out-debate axeman. i don't even think it is possible on this subject.
 
Hahaha.... you forgot "athiest".
I noticed him/her recently as a new user to ET.

peace

axeman




"Religion is bunk"
---Thomas Edison




Quote from Gordon Gekko:


how about ETAA: EliteTrader Atheist Alliance

so far i think we have:

GG
LongShot
FPC
axeman
stu

feel free to add yourself to the list. :p
More...
 
ARogueTrader, you are NOT going to out-debate axeman. i don't even think it is possible on this subject.
GG
___________________________________________

Axeman does not debate he indulges in childish arguments and insults.
I don't have the time right now to point to the hundreds of examples but will soon.
 
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