God is...

[Baron]

Your answers are not full. For example, you gave an example of how you would just say "you don't know."

I asked you for clarity, and gave a specific example and asked would you also give that same answer to the example question. There is nothing wrong with getting clarity during a debate. Yet you want to vilify doing that during a debate, and labeling clarifying as "arguing."

I asked how you would respond to a scientific question. Would you give it the same scrutiny as you do religious questions. My premise was that you are biased, which is a fair position to investigate during a debate.

I asked more that once because to date, you haven't answered the simple example questions.

Nor did I. Again, I wanted to see if you would answer secular questions in the way you say you answer religious question. My questions are clear and simple to any reader, imo. Nothing complex or complicated.

Read above for my intention.

Once again, words are being put into my mouth. You could simply have asked me my intentions (rather than claiming to know them), like I did you with your prophecy timeframe restriction. And also, I actually made posts setting forth how religion and science actually work together.

Once again, ASK.

I generally don't bang on about myself unless it's relevant to making my point. Rarely is one data point (me) relevant. I've been busy trying to get you to clarify your positions.

Now maybe we could have progressed to where the discussing focused on me personally, but you never asked any questions; and I never got past discussing prophecy (again!?).

It'd be different if you posted, "I've asked you questions, but you don't answer any."

I see this everywhere and IRL. It's like questions have become a thing of the past ... like cursive writing.

Folks, if you want to know something, just ask.

In this case, my premise is that a scripture that documents fulfilled prophecy evidences the super natural, etc. It's that simple, and the logic would proceed from there, but we never get that far. Non-believers seem to really have a problem facing up to prophecy.

1. What personal information should I have included that's relevant to my premise?
2. ... that would help you understand the premise?
3. ... that would normally be included by others?
4. Why don't/didn't you just ask me what you think should be included; like I've been asking questions I am curious about?

I renew my unanswered questions.
I get it if you no longer want to debate.
I'm good either way.

Again, you've gone on and on asking for more clarity from me, yet you have yet to provide any personal experiences of your own. Do I really need to ask you individual questions for you to clearly and succinctly state what your personal positions are on each of the topics we've discussed? You keep firing off questions but you don't ever answer or address any of the outstanding questions from your own perspective or quote anything specific. It's like you want to argue about what other people's positions are without having any basis, stories, or personal experiences to back up what your personal beliefs are. Studentofthemarkets and themickey seem to have no problem with this at all, but you on the other hand haven't provided anything whatsoever of value, neither from quoting scriptures nor by personal experiences you've had. If all you've got to contribute is the same one-liner that scripture fulfilled prophecy, that's an extremely weak premise to argue from. It's like saying you've now widdled the Bible down to a single sentence, and that's all you believe and you're sticking to it.

 

[Baron]

Your answers are not full. For example, you gave an example of how you would just say "you don't know."

I asked you for clarity, and gave a specific example and asked would you also give that same answer to the example question. There is nothing wrong with getting clarity during a debate. Yet you want to vilify doing that during a debate, and labeling clarifying as "arguing."

I asked how you would respond to a scientific question. Would you give it the same scrutiny as you do religious questions. My premise was that you are biased, which is a fair position to investigate during a debate.

I asked more that once because to date, you haven't answered the simple example questions.

Nor did I. Again, I wanted to see if you would answer secular questions in the way you say you answer religious question. My questions are clear and simple to any reader, imo. Nothing complex or complicated.

Read above for my intention.

Once again, words are being put into my mouth. You could simply have asked me my intentions (rather than claiming to know them), like I did you with your prophecy timeframe restriction. And also, I actually made posts setting forth how religion and science actually work together.

Once again, ASK.

I generally don't bang on about myself unless it's relevant to making my point. Rarely is one data point (me) relevant. I've been busy trying to get you to clarify your positions.

Now maybe we could have progressed to where the discussing focused on me personally, but you never asked any questions; and I never got past discussing prophecy (again!?).

It'd be different if you posted, "I've asked you questions, but you don't answer any."

I see this everywhere and IRL. It's like questions have become a thing of the past ... like cursive writing.

Folks, if you want to know something, just ask.

In this case, my premise is that a scripture that documents fulfilled prophecy evidences the super natural, etc. It's that simple, and the logic would proceed from there, but we never get that far. Non-believers seem to really have a problem facing up to prophecy.

1. What personal information should I have included that's relevant to my premise?
2. ... that would help you understand the premise?
3. ... that would normally be included by others?
4. Why don't/didn't you just ask me what you think should be included; just like I've been asking you questions that I am curious about?

I renew my unanswered questions.
I get it if you no longer want to debate.
I'm good either way.

I just went back 30 or 40 pages in this thread and discovered the same setup I mentioned above. You have yet to post a single scripture or personal experience that backs up any belief you've stated in this thread. It seems like you're here to debate pretty much any topic from any member by deflecting the conversation via asking more questions. Literally you haven't stated any particular stance of your own backed by any evidence whatsoever.

 

[userque]

Again, you've gone on and on asking for more clarity from me,

No, not "on and on." Same original simple, short requests. Quote me and show me to be incorrect.

yet you have yet to provide any personal experiences of your own.

Did you read my last post where I asked you what I should provide?
Did you read my last post where I said just ask me what you want to know?

Do I really need to ask you individual questions for you to clearly and succinctly state what your personal positions are on each of the topics we've discussed?

If you have a reason for knowing personal information, ask.
I have no idea what you want to know.
I was talking for fulfilled prophecies in the bible. I have no personal experience with making prophecies.
What is so difficult about asking whatever it is you are interested in?
Are you really telling us that it makes more sense for debates, rather than ask, should just guess what the opponent wants to know. And keep guessing until you get it right. Rather than the opponent simply asking what they want to know? Really?

You keep firing off questions

No, my last post had no new questions about the debate topic.
No, this post has no new questions about the debate topic.
But I am responding to your concerns by asking you what information you want from me? If you want to count questions like that.

but you don't ever answer or address any of the outstanding questions from your own perspective or quote anything specific.

Tell us what questions you've asked, that I haven't responded to.

It's like you want to argue about what other people's positions are without having any basis, stories, or personal experiences to back up what your personal beliefs are

To debate, I have to know your position.
To know your position, I have to ask.
I can give a dissertation without asking anything, but that's not debating.
And if @studentofthemarkets is more interested in setting forth her information (although I'm not sure she is revealing much personal information, as you seem to imply) rather than clarifying the opponents position, that's fine.

I've seen debates go one and one without either side knowing 'why' the other feels the way they do. No one asks the question.

but you on the other hand haven't provided anything whatsoever of value, neither from quoting scriptures nor by personal experiences you've had. If all you've got to contribute is the same one-liner that scripture fulfilled prophecy, that's an extremely weak premise to come from.

Once again, I've already stated that the logic would proceed after your position was clarifyed.

The first step is to clarify the opponents position. For all I know, we could agree in part on multiple issues, meaning those points could be left out of the debate.
After I understand your position, I would then argue my position. I've already mentioned what my position was on fulfilled prophecy.

Rather than me guess what you want to know, and as I've suggested multiple times, ask your questions.

I get it if you don't really want to debate; I'm used to that when prophecy and bias are the topics.

 

[studentofthemarkets]

Ok, first of all, you keep quoting very limited portions of the Bible as some sort of evidence of your beliefs

Well, sometimes I keep quoting the same passages over and over because I don't think anyone reading this gets the significance of them!!! For example, it is very significant that Isaiah 53 was written long before Jesus came to earth. Here, I'll quote the entire chapter, since you mentioned I was quoting limited portions of the Bible. This is really a great chapter. I usually read through it every day.

Read this, realizing that it was written in the 8th century B.C and there is a complete manuscript which dates to well before Jesus' time. According to Wikipedia, "Pieces of the scroll have been dated using both radiocarbon dating and palaeographic/scribal dating. These methods resulted in calibrated date ranges between 356 and 103 BCE and 150–100 BCE respectively." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaiah_Scroll

Isaiah 52:13-15

The Sin-Bearing Servant
13 Behold, My Servant shall deal prudently;
He shall be exalted and extolled and be very high.
14 Just as many were astonished at you,
So His visage was marred more than any man,
And His form more than the sons of men;
15 So shall He sprinkle many nations.
Kings shall shut their mouths at Him;
For what had not been told them they shall see,
And what they had not heard they shall consider.
​

Isaiah 53

The Sin-Bearing Messiah
53 Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
And as a root out of dry ground.
He has no form or comeliness;
And when we see Him,
There is no beauty that we should desire Him.
3 He is despised and rejected by men,
A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

4 Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
9 And they made His grave with the wicked—
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.​

I honestly do not understand how an unbeliever can know that these words were written a long time before Jesus yet accurately describe what Jesus did for us at the cross, and not realize that this is all the evidence they need that God planned this out, and therefore the God of the Bible exists. I do not know of anything like this existing outside of Christianity. It's not like the Jewish people really understood this passage themselves and were trying to make it happen. Even Jesus' disciples didn't realize that Jesus was going to die for their sins until after He died.

But couple this passage with the passage posted below from Daniel. These verses from Daniel actually give the number of years after the decree for the first captivity to return to from Babylon back to Israel until the Messiah, and those numbers add up to Jesus time here on this earth. So, not only did Jesus fulfill the Isaiah passage above, but He did it in the timeframe the Scriptures foretold it would happen.

I don't understand why people don't see this an amazing evidence of God's design to foretell and then bring to pass what He foretold. Also, I don't understand why people don't see that both passages together confirm that Jesus is the One God gave us so that we can be reconciled back to Him.

Daniel 9:25, 26

25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.
26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.​

Would you say that a person would be considered an expert, or even authoritative, in any subject on the planet by reading 25% of one book? Imagine if you read 1/4th of a book on mathematics, or history, or science, or politics, and then deemed yourself an expert? Or let's go to the extreme and pretend you read 100% of one book, believed it to be true, and now have everything figured out in life. It sounds so ridiculous but that's exactly what believers do. They get the bare bones thumbnail sketch of biblical teaching and then proceed like they are now experts in pretty much all of life's critical questions. How did creation come to be? No problem! How to handle any situation in life? It's all right in the scriptures! What happens when we die? It's all laid out in black and white!.... and the list goes on and on.

But the Bible isn't just any book. It is the revelation of God to us. It was written over a span of over 1,000 years and had about 40 different authors, God being the primary Author.

I think what you are trying to say is, by looking only to the Bible for spiritual truth I am ignoring the large number of other places to look. The problem with that is that the Bible IS the source of reliable truth and all other sources of wisdom or religion came from the imaginations of people's minds, not direct revelation by God.

And when I step back and observe that behavior, the famous quote from Osho instantly comes to mind:

"The less people know, the more stubbornly they know it."

Would you say the same thing about a relationship? The less you know someone, the more stubbornly you insist that they are your friend?

I hardly think so.

Yet with God, I can say that the more I've read His word and know His friendship, the more I can insist and know for certain that "I know Whom I have believed."

 

[Baron]

Rather than me guess what you want to know, and as I've suggested multiple times, ask your questions.

I get it if you don't really want to debate; I'm used to that when prophecy and bias are the topics.

Common. We're not a bunch of dumbasses, and we've covered a lot of topics other than prophecy. You're reading all of the posts like everyone else, and nobody else has a problem chiming in with their opinions except for you, so now you need us to recap it all with specific questions to you directly in order for you to participate as if you didn't read any of the posts above? Ok, if you want me to treat you like a child and formulate specific questions based upon all we've discussed, I can certainly do that. Or if your only debating angle is prophecy, it's clear you're not prepared for this overall discussion on any level.

 

[userque]

I just went back 30 or 40 pages in this thread and discovered the same setup I mentioned above. You have yet to post a single scripture or personal experience that backs up any belief you've stated in this thread. It seems like you're here to debate pretty much any topic from any member by deflecting the conversation via asking more questions. Literally you haven't stated any particular stance of your own backed by any evidence whatsoever.

See below. I went back 10 pages. Let me know if you need more examples.

As I previously explained. I clarify the argument before citing sources. I'm sure this is clear to readers by now. Others may jump to citing sources. That's not what I do.

In court, it's called cross-examining or re-directing the witness.

It makes no sense to cite sources if the argument hasn't been clarified.
_____________________

I know/knew a person at the edge of death, and they could have died by not going to the hospital. Doctor said they likely had less than 24 hours to live when they admitted themselves had they not gone to the hospital.

They wanted death for both heaven, and the pain relief.
But they ultimately decided against 'just letting it happen' because they didn't want to leave some things unfinished/unorganized/unprepared for the family.

We are under grace, not the law. But you are correct to the extent that killing oneself could have negative consequences.

As it is not clear whether simply not making efforts to extend ones own life; is equivalent to "killing" oneself; I chose the less dramatic scenario in my example. Also, this position is more in line with what @Baron was giving an example of.

 

[userque]

nobody else has a problem chiming in with their opinions

LMAO!
Inter alia, you have a troll problem

You're reading all of the posts like everyone else, and nobody else has a problem chiming in with their opinions except for you,

I had no problem asking you questions. Also, my few, simple questions went beyond what was previously discussed.

so now you need us to recap it all with specific questions to you directly in order for you to participate as if you didn't read any of the posts above?

Again, if I didn't include something you wanted to know; yes, adults simply ask--like I did you. We had a simple discussion that had just started, not 10 hours of oral testimony transcripts.

Ok, if you want me to treat you like a child and formulate specific questions based upon all we've discussed, I can certainly do that.

No, I simply want you to ask if you want to know something; rather than try getting everyone to believe that we should know in advance what the opponent wants to know about us personally.

Or if your only debating angle is prophecy, it's clear you're not prepared for this overall discussion on any level.

I'm not from Missouri, but I'd love for you to show me, ... and the room. (Debate, Mensa, Etc.)

 

[themickey]

I honestly do not understand how an unbeliever can know that these words were written a long time before Jesus yet accurately describe what Jesus did for us at the cross.....

I honestly do not understand how a believer can not know there is a chance the claims made about Jesus are fraudulent. Jesus wasn't the fraud, he was just a regular human who needled the Jews to the extent they hung him from a pole.
It was the deadbeat rag tag transient riffraff cultists who are the frauds.

 

[themickey]

The bible says Jesus claimed to be the Son of God.
Probably no such thing happened, that shit was made up a century later and stitched into a yarn the best snake oil salesman would be proud of.

 

[themickey]

Bring to Jesus the meek, the mild, the sick, the poor, the widows, the vulnerable and you dumb stupid sheep who lack a brain.

Note the white shirt of honesty.