God is...

[Baron]

You're welcome.

Actually, I believe a percentage of suicides are the result of what you're describing.

Heard the one about the two bulls?

As long as I have 'unfinished' business on Earth (regarding family, documents, etc., etc.), I don't mind waiting for my end-time to happen ... when it happens, ... rather than hastening it along.

I also believe that there is a possibility that suicide, and/or intentionally letting one's self die, may be a sin.

I don't mind waiting my turn...like most people do (dying unintentionally).

The Earth is still God's creation, and while it's not Heaven/The-Kingdom, I don't mind spending an average life span taking it all in. If I'd already experience everything Earthly possible, maybe I would be ready to go--even if I didn't act on it.

At a theme park, you just don't ride your favorite ride, and go home. You experience what you can, when you can, while you can. Doesn't mean you think less of your favorite ride. I'm riding the Earth right now, and don't think any less of what I think living in the afterlife would generally, in part, be.

Interacting with both good and evil people might translate into a learning experience useable in heaven/The-Kingdom.

We are to become eternal beings ... an Earthly life span doesn't seem that long when you put it into the perspective of eternity.

We all prioritize and put things into perspective.

We "love" money; but will still make time for family. We'll still spend that money on gifts/entertainment.

Two motives, money and love of family and friends. We balance the two desires; just like the two bulls. We can also desire staying alive on Earth with family and friends; and also passing over.

I like bacon, but I don't have to eat it everyday, or every hour. Balance.

You get the point. We simply just don't concern ourselves only with our greatest love; we balance between all that we like and love. We do it with non-religious things; and religious things.

I believe I'll love living in the afterlife; but I don't have to go today.

People do not rush to do everything (non-religious things) they like or love. And that same logic applies to people liking or loving Heaven/The-Kingdom.

Finally, while living in a mansion (Heaven) sounds nice; for all we really know, the afterlife could be more difficult than one's Earthly existence!

P.S. Apologize for the jumbled nature of this post. Tried to cover a multitude of possibilities.

There are some problems with your balance analogy. First of all, activities that you do in this life like eating bacon, arguing, and making money are all done within the context of this life. But you can't balance your existence in the way you are describing by having a little bit of time on earth, and then having a little bit of time in heaven, and then heading on back to earth for a while so you can get some "good" instead of being saturated in so much "great" up in heaven. Second, heaven is eternal so no matter how you look at it, staying here on earth for another couple of decades (not the funnest times as you get old) is a drop in the bucket compared to the eternity you're going to be part of once you get to heaven. It's like your existence on earth in terms of time spent here is like comparing a grain of sand to something infinitely massive like the size of the universe. There's no balance of time spent between the two.

You mentioned a theme park earlier, so here's a better analogy. You tell your children that you've decided to take them to Disney World in Orlando. After you tell them, the kids get instantly excited but then you drop this choice on them: "We know our time at Disney is going to be amazing in every way. The only thing left to decide is how we are going to get there. Would you kids like to walk there, ride horses there, drive our car there, or fly on a jet there? Since we live in Washington State, walking to Orlando could take months, riding our horses will take weeks, driving there will take about a week, and flying there will take about 5 or 6 hours." Which travel method do you guys want to use?"

Obviously, you know where I'm going with this. Even if you were scared of flying, if you've got a car in the driveway nobody says, "Let's just walk to Disney." When a child (or an adult) has the option of having an amazing experience, they are motivated to go there now and via the fasted method of travel possible. And that behavior pattern of taking the paths of speed and least resistance is demonstrated in life and nature with almost a limitless number of examples.

But nope, not with religion. Believers have somehow got to curve fit some strange logic they would never otherwise use to make it all work:

"I know Jesus died for my sins, and I know that being absent from my body is instantly being in Heaven with the Lord in all of his Glory! But... I'm just not motivated in any way whatsoever to get there to see Him or be a part of the heavenly experience, so I'm fine waiting around for decades for the trip to begin. I'd much rather hang around here on earth for now and deal with Covid and every other hardship that comes my way."

Makes zero sense.

 

[FortuneTeller]

There are some problems with your balance analogy. First of all, activities that you do in this life like eating bacon, arguing, and making money are all done within the context of this life. But you can't balance your existence in the way you are describing by having a little bit of time on earth, and then having a little bit of time in heaven, and then heading on back to earth for a while so you can get some "good" instead of being saturated in so much "great" up in heaven. Second, heaven is eternal so no matter how you look at it, staying here on earth for another couple of decades (not the funnest times as you get old) is a drop in the bucket compared to the eternity you're going to be part of once you get to heaven. It's like your existence on earth in terms of time spent here is like comparing a grain of sand to something infinitely massive like the size of the universe. There's no balance between of time spent between the two.

You mentioned a theme park earlier, so here's a better analogy. You tell your children that you've decided to take them to Disney World in Orlando. After you tell them, the kids get instantly excited but then you drop this choice on them: "We know our time at Disney is going to be amazing in every way. The only thing left to decide is how we are going to get there. Would you kids like to walk there, ride horses there, drive our car there, or fly on a jet there? Since we live in Washington State, walking to Orlando could take months, riding our horses will take weeks, driving there will take about a week, and flying there will take about 5 or 6 hours." Which travel method do you guys want to use?"

Obviously, you know where I'm going with this. Even if you were scared of flying, if you've got a car in the driveway nobody says, "Let's just walk to Disney." When a child (or an adult) has the option of having an amazing experience, they are motivated to go there now and via the fasted method of travel possible. And that behavior pattern of taking the paths of speed and least resistance is demonstrated in life and nature with almost a limitless number of examples.

But nope, not with religion. Believers have somehow got to curve fit some strange logic they would never otherwise use to make it all work:

"I know Jesus died for my sins, and I know that being absent from my body is instantly being in Heaven with the Lord in all of his Glory! But... I'm just not motivated in any way whatsoever to get there to see Him or be a part of the heavenly experience, so I'm fine waiting around for decades for the trip to begin. I'd much rather hang around here on earth for now and deal with Covid and every other hardship that comes my way."

Makes zero sense.

Baron, if you believed in Heaven which apparently you do not?, would you want to hang yourself in your garage in your home tonight knowing you were leaving your wife and kids behind to deal with it just so you could go to Heaven right now? Doesn't that sound kind of selfish? Trying to go to Heaven before one's time is totally selfish in my opinion.

I doubt if anyone in their right mind wants to leave loved ones behind when they die especially if one has more loved ones here on Earth vs in Heaven.

 

[FortuneTeller]

All you did what state the same thing about the 10 commandments that you did the first time around, so I will ask the question again from a different angle. If you were in a hospital bed and you were on life support today, and you were given two choices, either continue on life support in perpetuity or "pull the plug" (which would get you to heaven RIGHT NOW), you're saying that pulling the plug would be suicide on your part (or if someone you designated said "pull the plug" that would be murder) and those would be sins that are not covered by the cross of Jesus?

I see that userque has answered this in a really, really great way. I agree with his answers on this.

 

[studentofthemarkets]

"I know Jesus died for my sins, and I know that being absent from my body is instantly being in Heaven with the Lord in all of his Glory! But... I'm just not motivated in any way whatsoever to get there to see Him or be a part of the heavenly experience, so I'm fine waiting around for decades for the trip to begin. I'd much rather hang around here on earth for now and deal with Covid and every other hardship that comes my way."

Paul knew exactly what you are talking about:

I am torn between the two. I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better indeed. But it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.
Philipians 1:23, 24​

 

[Baron]

Paul knew exactly what you are talking about:

I am torn between the two. I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better indeed. But it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.
Philipians 1:23, 24​

Paul was sitting in a prison cell when he wrote Philipians, which right there goes to show that even the greatest evangelist the world has ever known would rather spend his life in a prison cell than end his suffering immediately and be with Christ in heaven today.

 

[Baron]

Baron, if you believed in Heaven which apparently you do not?, would you want to hang yourself in your garage in your home tonight knowing you were leaving your wife and kids behind to deal with it just so you could go to Heaven right now? Doesn't that sound kind of selfish? Trying to go to Heaven before one's time is totally selfish in my opinion.

I doubt if anyone in their right mind wants to leave loved ones behind when they die especially if one has more loved ones here on Earth vs in Heaven.

You're not thinking it through. You're going to leave loved ones behind no matter when you die. Whether you choose to die now or wait until it just happens, you're leaving loved ones behind. In fact, you're leaving everyone behind, whether they love you or not.

 

[studentofthemarkets]

Paul was sitting in a prison cell when he wrote Philipians, which right there goes to show that even the greatest evangelist the world has ever known would rather spend his life in a prison cell than end his suffering immediately and be with Christ in heaven today.

"which right there goes to show that even the greatest evangelist the world has ever known would rather spend his life in a prison cell than end his suffering immediately and be with Christ in heaven today"
​

Right. Paul believed that his time spent here on earth was helpful to others. He believed he could make a difference in their lives. He was actually addressing this to Christians, so evangelism wasn't really his focus in this passage. Christians spiritual growth seems to be what he is referring to because in the next sentence he explains that his staying will result in:

..."your progress and joy in the faith."
Philippians 1:25
BSB
​

Paul wanted to be with Christ but was willing to wait for heaven so that he could be of good to others for the remainder of his life.

You're not thinking it through. You're going to leave loved ones behind no matter when you die. Whether you choose to die now or wait until it just happens, you're leaving loved ones behind. In fact, you're leaving everyone behind, whether they love you or not.

Right, we will always be leaving loved ones behind when we die, but think of it like this. Would a mom with young kids say it doesn't matter when she dies, when they are young or in 20 years when they are older, because either way she's going to be leaving them behind?

No. A mom with young kids is going to say she needs to be there for her kids, and she'll make every effort to do what she can to be there for them.

I think it's the same with what Paul is saying. He knew God had called him in a special way to reveal God's truths to people, he saw how God had blessed his ministry, and wanted to continue to be used by God to help others come to know God further. This wasn't a selfish desire on Paul's part, it wasn't for his own fame or for money. It was a sincere belief, as other places in the New Testament record, that Jesus had personally revealed Himself to Paul for the purpose of using him to bring others into relationship with Jesus. It is Jesus focused, not man focused.

 

[themickey]

Prayer: Is not something special or unique to Christians because they believe it works.
All religions use prayer.
Muslims, Buddists, North American Indians, Australian Aborigines, Ancient Roman Pagans, the Jews, Ancient Egyptians, Hindus, every nation on earth and every religion since the beginning of time.
But somehow Christians think it is only in their domain that prayer is a form of communicating which brings results.
Why would any religion have as their mainstay, prayer, if they didnt believe it works?
Every pagan religion has prayer they believe which works otherwise they wouldn't practise it.
So for christians to claim prayer works or is a means to communicate with the spiritual - boring - next....!
Christians are brainwashed to believe prayer is unique to them.

 

[userque]

There are some problems with your balance analogy. First of all, activities that you do in this life like eating bacon, arguing, and making money are all done within the context of this life. But you can't balance your existence in the way you are describing by having a little bit of time on earth, and then having a little bit of time in heaven, and then heading on back to earth for a while so you can get some "good" instead of being saturated in so much "great" up in heaven.

That's not my analogy.

My analogy is that just as the non-believers balance their wants and desires on Earth. Believers do the same, they just include Heaven/Kingdom, and have only two things to balance when it come to Heaven/Kingdom, when to leave Earth if given the option; which, puts the fulcrum of the balance somewhere.

I'd also like to note that that is just one possibility as to why believers aren't committing suicide by the millions in order to, as they may believe, enter Heaven/Kingdom. (I now see you address another possibility or two below.)

You mentioned a theme park earlier, so here's a better analogy. You tell your children that you've decided to take them to Disney World in Orlando. After you tell them, the kids get instantly excited but then you drop this choice on them: "We know our time at Disney is going to be amazing in every way. The only thing left to decide is how we are going to get there. Would you kids like to walk there, ride horses there, drive our car there, or fly on a jet there? Since we live in Washington State, walking to Orlando could take months, riding our horses will take weeks, driving there will take about a week, and flying there will take about 5 or 6 hours." Which travel method do you guys want to use?"

Obviously, you know where I'm going with this. Even if you were scared of flying, if you've got a car in the driveway nobody says, "Let's just walk to Disney." When a child (or an adult) has the option of having an amazing experience, they are motivated to go there now and via the fasted method of travel possible. And that behavior pattern of taking the paths of speed and least resistance is demonstrated in life and nature with almost a limitless number of examples.

Again, that's not the analogy.

If they had two favorite ways to travel, then they could balance between the two.

If their favorite way to the theme park is 'the fastest,' then that's the way they'll choose everytime.

Let me remind everyone:

The original premise is that the believer is torn between two or more desires/loves ... the family on Earth, and the afterlife, for example.

Your travel example doesn't compare two favorite modes of travel.

But nope, not with religion. Believers have somehow got to curve fit some strange logic they would never otherwise use to make it all work:

Refuted above

"I know Jesus died for my sins, and I know that being absent from my body is instantly being in Heaven with the Lord in all of his Glory! But... I'm just not motivated in any way whatsoever to get there to see Him or be a part of the heavenly experience, so I'm fine waiting around for decades for the trip to begin. I'd much rather hang around here on earth for now and deal with Covid and every other hardship that comes my way."

Explained in my previous posts with several examples as to why individuals may make individual decision not to commit suicide nor to voluntarily let themselves die.

Makes zero sense.

Just as you said believing doesn't make something true. People not understanding a subject-matter doesn't make it false.

I gave you multiple reasonable reasons as to why a believer may not want to die, even while believing doing so would land them in Heaven/Kingdom.

You refuted some of them.

I explained, very simply and succinctly, how your rebuttal analogies are not equivalent; and am prepared to defend those explanations, should you choose to argue against them.

 

[userque]

Additionally:

As I've stated, non-believers like to judge believers under different, unfair metrics.

• non-believer doing sin, no discussion.
• believer doing sin or something "weird," they must be brainwashed or hypocrites.

There is no way to observe sinful actions of a believer, and know for certain that the action would also have occurred had the believer never converted.

IOW, the sinful action may have had nothing to do with them being a believer; and everything to do with their way of living BEFORE converting.

Being a believer does not imply perfection.
Are non-believers perfect?
Yet, non-believers judge believers under this perfection metric.

I submit that non-believers would have a greater impact on the world by trying to stop the sinning and brainwashing of their own.

There's are good reasons wise men have said stuff like:

Have we seen any evidence in our country that he was correct yet?