God is the Devil?

[stu]

Quote from Hansel H:

So, summing up, the evidence of the non-existence of God is blindingly obvious because the evidence for the existence of God is not up the standards of the evidence re the consequences of jumping off cliffs.

That’s not actually what was being discussed but I would pretty much go along with it.
However in regard to what we were actually discussing, I put forward reasons why belief in God is motivated by a need to believe, against how the non-existence of God is not motivated by a need to disbelieve. Your summation is not addressing that part of the topic.

Quote from Hansel H:

Cliff and rock evidence doesn't support the atheist's, the theist's or any other theory about the essence and origins of being. It doesn't follow that because there's no God evidence equivalent to cliff evidence that there's no God; there's no non-God evidence equivalent to cliff evidence.

Cliff and rock evidence is hard practical full force reality with obvious predictions representing a confirmation of what exists and what will happen. In that way it most certainly does support the atheist against the theist’s claim.
It's obvious straightforward clear and sensible. The principles of cliff/rock evidence for existence apply to everything that exists…..

But did you miss where I mentioned this in my previous post:?
"It does not mean God does not exist by some other so called evidence, but it is patently not to the standard of evidence cliff/fall/rocks achieves, so the theist must now proceed to any other conclusion that suits their personal needs."

Quote from Hansel H:

The evidence for God is inferential. The theist infers God from the character of the world. The atheist, of course, may infer non-God from the same. It's a matter of what the theist/atheist selects as his evidence

…all of which is confirming the evidence for God is not to the standard of cliff/rocks.
The evidence for God is inferential and so is the evidence for Fairies fire breathing Dragons and Unicorns.

What do you mean by the “character of the world” ? Cliff/rocks demonstrates the uncompromisingly direct character of the world, and the existence of God is not there by it. The theist does not infer God from the character of the world otherwise they would be able to use the cliff/rock comparison as evidence. to infer and confirm God.

It is not a question about the atheist selecting the evidence. We were discussing the question of whether the evidence is only selected evidence to suit personal needs. It manifestly is not as far as the atheist is concerned. Hard facts are not selections. It is abundantly clear, the theist does not select the cliff/rock reality as evidence, but has to select some other..to suit their personal God needs.

The atheist need make no inference of non–God, for according to “the character of the world” at any point of cliff/rock reality, as I already mentioned, the 'evidence' for non-existence is right there in the comparison. It does not represent a preference to a non-existence to suit personal needs. The hard facts of cliff/rocks reality strikingly presents non-existence in the case of God. Now the theist has to proceed to any other conclusion that suits their personal needs.

Quote from Hansel H:
: I'm saying that all explanations for existence are fantastically non-logical and therefore equally logically invalid; this means an ontological explanation including God is no less rational than one excluding God.

You’re saying logical is the same as fantastically non-logical ? !
There are no ontological explanations for God that justify the word ontological in the way cliff/ rocks comparison do. You surely would have made one by now.

Quote from Hansel H:

Probably we all come to conclusions that suit our needs. An atheist has a need for a rational explanation but given that searching for something both rational and complete in an obviously inexplicable context is irrational. Every explanation is enveloped in the irrational context of inexplicable origin and end or an equally inexplicable eternality.

No way H.
There is little in the reality of existence that is inexplicable about falling off a 1000ft drop onto rocks below. In realizing that, you don’t come to conclusions that suit your needs. The conclusion is demonstrably true whether it suits your needs or not.

Not every explanation is a poetical and emotional fantasy about ethereal indulgencies.
If a piano is about to drop on your head you don’t invoke thoughts of “something both rational and complete in an obviously inexplicable context” .You get out the way because you are perfectly well aware of the reality of existence and what it means.

Quote from Hansel H:

H: The bacterium's understanding is God-given and perfect. It must be perfect because if it included imperfections it would have to exist and we all know a bacterium's understanding is non-existent. (just kidding )

Alright you are kidding, but in some church or on tv, that nonsense strangely constitutes a sermon intended to be believed, and the means to extract a few grand from the gullible..

Quote from Hansel H:

However, like the bacterium our understanding is appropriate to our nature and limitations but unlike the bacterium our understanding exists and includes imperfections. If God wanted to grant us perfect understanding God would have to adjust our limitations to the point that we would no longer be what we were. If we were adjusted in this way we would no longer be "us"; we would become "them". Thus it's impossible for "us" to have perfect understanding.

You’re saying it’s impossible for humanity to have perfect understanding because humanity wouldn’t be the same as it is? Don’t you think that’s a trifle circular?

Quote from Hansel H:

In any case, the being that does have perfect understanding would understand every thing including itself. This perfect understanding of itself would include a perfect understanding of its own needs and would make choices based on this perfect understanding unavoidable and automatic. Choices re the world would also be automatic since the one most correct course of action would always be obvious. Thus, the being with perfect understanding would exist like an automaton following the one and only course its perfect understanding indicated was appropriate in a manner indistiguishable from determinism.
Sorry, that's all I have time for tonight.

No way. Perfect understanding does not equate to perfect or automatic action. People have a Perfect Understanding in the evidence of reality for cliffs , rocks and pianos falling on their heads. But they still make up fantastical imaginations about their God existing, against all of that same ‘evidence’ which demonstrates how their God doesn’t so exist. All to suit their personal needs.

 

[I am...]

Quote from peilthetraveler:

There you go...re-writing scripture to suit your agenda. If it says it in the bible and it contradicts YOU, then you just try to find fault in the men of day or you just say its wrong.

Uh, your scriptures are a re-write. I merely return some sense to the senseless. If it contradicts me I say it is incorrect, yes.

And I am not tracing my geneology through anyone. I clearly state that I worship the same God as Abraham.

Whether by blood or faith, if you trace your geneology through man to man's maker, you are making yourself out to be a son of the devil...the "prince of this world"...a "liar"..."from the beginning". As such, the first three words of Hebrew genesis folklore ("In the beginning...") are a lie against Christ. Man is a faith-based phenomenon whose existence is entirely dependant upon belief...as well as his maker.

If you are going to make up your own religion, make up the name of your own god and your own savior. Stop leaching off of Christianity. You are the one that speaks in circular logic by saying things like I am an enemy of God, then in the same breath saying God has no enemies.

It's the other way around brother. What you are calling Christianity was leached from "the Way" by Saul/Paul.

God has no enemies because you don't exist. But if you insist you do, then you are an enemy of the Truth. It doesn't hurt the Truth, but it does hurt you who deny you are Christ.

I have seen people like you before. You either have an agenda or you have seriously deluded yourself into believing your own lies. You try to get people to follow YOUR beliefs, by offering them something they want. You try to offer them the same thing as Christ had and try to get them to doubt the word of the true God of Israel. And thats all someone needs is just a little bit of doubt to get their asses sent to hell. Because if you have a little bit of doubt about the bible, you cant trust in the savior Jesus Christ.

Your agenda, as a "christian", is to make both heaven and earth real. As such, you are a freind of the world, biting the fruit of "good and evil"...mixed together. "Good and evil" is lie. It's fruit puts you to sleep and deludes you.

The god of Israel is a false god...an idol...a graven image in the mind of the "prodigal Son". The prodigal Son is in hell already...condemnded as he has condemned Christ...his true Self. The god of Israel is a toy...a graven image in the mind of he who denies Christ. "Israel" is a toy...as are all nations in the mind of this false god...held hostage through psychological terrorism, made an ally by a kind of Stocholm Syndrome. The false god writes its own scriptures and calls them "holy". But they are ungodly and decietful from the very first sentence.

I've already exposed you as a fraud in this post and I used the bible to do it. You have tried to defend yourself (poorly at that) with your own conceptions that are based on nothing more than your own imagination.

The bible is a fraud...a menacing meme...concieved in sin...in the "image" of a powerful, yet deluded, imagination. How could you possibly expose Light with darkness?

Its very funny also that you try to attack me with what Jesus said in scripture...scripture that you claim was written by anonymous punk scribes and idolatrous apostles.

Jesus is like light in the darkness. The NT crucifies him, driving words into his mouth as it drives nails into his hands. The truth bleeds through the red letter editions. And if you read between the lines, you can hear the echo of One who understood God. He left a legacy that is lost in translation...buried under loads of b.s. Nevertheless, every crime scene leaves clues. And if you read it with the Holy Spirit, you need not suffer under private interpretations of hard-hearted Hebrews.

Christ!

 

[I am...]

Quote from stu:

All to suit their personal needs.

Yah, the need to be happy.

 

[stu]

Quote from I am...:

Yah, the need to be happy.

If ignorance is bliss, religion will fill the need very very well.

 

[village trader]

how does google fit into all this?
www.thechurchofgoogle.org