Give up my guns?

[Cuddles]

It doesn't and Mexico is indeed a socialist shithole, just like Brazil, where drugs are against the law too, by the way.
But what are one of the main sources of violence in Mexico(if no THE MAIN, BY FAR)? Drug traffic.

Why is that? Why is the biggest drug cartel located in Mexico? Do you think that that has nothing to do with the fact that one of the world's largest consumer of drugs(where drugs are against the law) is right across the border? Even at the time of Escobar in Colombia, the biggest consumer was always the U.S.

In that sense, the war on drugs from the U.S. government is the biggest factor that makes these cartels so powerful and so rich.

If these drugs were allowed, like alcohol and tobacco, the cartels wouldn't exist. We all know who Al Capone is simply because of the alcohol prohibition in the 20's.


No. I'm saying (again) that where there is demand, there will be offer. The demand for drugs is from drug users.

The demand for weapons, where they are not allowed by law, is mainly from criminals, because they use this for their activities(they must have them to steal, kill, fight with each other...).
These criminals won't give a damn about the law, just as they don't when they kill and steal. Because this is what they do for a living. If they don't have weapons, they are dead. But people who follow the law will probably think it is not worth breaking the law everyday by carrying guns like they do today, because every single minute they are carrying, they could be sent to jail for it.

I guess Chinese laws don't curb criminal demand for guns by that logic, or Singaporean laws for drugs don't curb demand for drugs either.

 

[NeoTrader]

I guess the demand for guns by criminals in China is non existent by that logic

I never said that. The fact that a country is socialist just means that they are more corrupt, simply because there are more laws to break and government officials have reason to be bribed, which indeed increases impunity(in case you didn't see the short video from Friedman I posted, I recommend you do, it is very interesting).

But since you mentioned China and you are so worried about children take a look at this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_massacres_by_death_toll

This shows school shootings in many countries and in all of these, except the US, guns are banned, but what do you know? They all have school shootings and China is one of the countries with the most, despite being a very strict country where even a Deadpool movie is forbidden to be played.

 

[NeoTrader]

I guess Chinese laws don't curb criminal demand for guns by that logic, or Singaporean laws for drugs don't curve demand for drugs either.

But you convenietly ignored all the points I made, especially comparing it with drugs, which make your gun ban suggestion invalid. The simple thing is: you'll create a huge black market that is small today because there is not a big restriction on guns within the country. Like with every product, if you forbid it and the demand is still there, a black market will be created. And in the black market, criminals rule and violence spreads, hurting not only those that actively participate in it, but also people that have nothing to do with it. Just like in the drug case.

 

[NeoTrader]

I guess Chinese laws don't curb criminal demand for guns by that logic, or Singaporean laws for drugs don't curve demand for drugs either.

Actually, no. To this day, there are people who even with the possibility of having the death penalty, they try to bring drugs to countries like Indonesia. There is a very famous case of a surfer from the city I live in (Curitiba), the guy was trying to bring in drugs inside his surfboard. He was executed a few years ago. What this does is increase the price of drugs, because these people will naturaly charge much more for the risk of being killed, but eventually a price that they think is worth it will be offered and they will do it. And obviously this is not just one isolated case, there are many people who do it to this day.

Agreed, in the case of the death penalty, even thought there will be some drugs coming in, it will be less than otherwise.

But do you think the death penalty will be put to effect for an eventual gun traffic in the U.S.? And even if you did, what about the millions of weapons that are already inside the country, like @Tsing Tao pointed out so many times? Criminals will still be criminals, so they would simply use these. The only thing you'd get is, MAYBE a price increase on these weapons, but since you would have banned guns for law abiding citizens, these will no longer have them so they would flood the black market making the price stable, maybe even go down.

 

[Cuddles]

Actually, no. To this day, there are people who even with the possibility of having the death penalty, they try to bring drugs to countries like Indonesia. There is a very famous case of a surfer from the city I live in (Curitiba), the guy was trying to bring in drugs inside his surfboard. He was executed a few years ago. What this does is increase the price of drugs, because these people will naturaly charge much more for the risk of being killed, but eventually a price that they think is worth it will be offered and they will do it. And obviously this is not just one isolated case, there are many people who do it to this day.

Agreed, in the case of the death penalty, even thought there will be some drugs coming in, it will be less than otherwise.

But do you think the death penalty will be put to effect for an eventual gun traffic in the U.S.? And even if you did, what about the millions of weapons that are already inside the country, like @Tsing Tao pointed out so many times? Criminals will still be criminals, so they would simply use these. The only thing you'd get is, MAYBE a price increase on these weapons, but since you would have banned guns for law abiding citizens, these will no longer have them so they would flood the black market making the price stable, maybe even go down.

You keep bringing up anecdotes to statistical arguments, that's a non-starter

 

[Tsing Tao]

Point to this time when weapons were coming in from Mexico en masse (legitimate source please, not just some random machine gun that found it's way in from Nicaragua.).

I dunno, Fast and Furious?

The point on I'm making on Chicago killings is that these guns were obtained domestically, something which can be prevented with tighter domestic gun control, wheter I support it or not.

The difference in black market weapons vs contraband weapons is none in theory, but the makeup of today's gray/black market weapons is predominantly domestic.

What regulation can you put in place to prevent the estimated 4.5 million illegally owned firearms from being used or changing hands?

 

[Tsing Tao]

I guess Chinese laws don't curb criminal demand for guns by that logic, or Singaporean laws for drugs don't curb demand for drugs either.

China doesn't have hundreds of millions of firearms already in circulation. Singapore has strict drug laws, but drug usage still exists. The difference is that when someone uses drugs, they aren't directly threatening someone who does not use drugs.

 

[Cuddles]

I dunno, Fast and Furious?



What regulation can you put in place to prevent the estimated 4.5 million illegally owned firearms from being used or changing hands?

Fast and furious was guns going from the US INTO Mexico, so wtf you on about?

 

[Tsing Tao]

Fast and furious was guns going from the US INTO Mexico, so wtf you on about?

Yes, and we found out about it because guns came back into the US from criminals. Or did you think those criminals that got guns from the US government made sure they never made it back across the border? Wasn't a border patrol agent killed with one of them?

From your beloved CNN:

During the Fast and Furious investigation, nearly 2,000 firearms were illegally purchased for $1.5 million, according to a DOJ inspector General report. Hundreds of guns were later recovered in the US and Mexico.​

 

[NeoTrader]

You keep bringing up anecdotes to statistical arguments, that's a non-starter

No, you keep ignoring my arguments and only attaching yourself to anecdotes. I was very clear that that was an extreme case, and that EVEN SO drug traffic in these extreme cases exists. The war on drugs in the US has been going on for decades now and every single measure there was to curb the entrance of drugs in the country has done nothing to stop it.

The same will happen to guns, if a ban takes place.

How about addressing the points I made instead of running away?

You can even pick one and try to answer since you couldn't do it in any of them.

For example, the link I showed you that documents all those school shootings in countries were guns are banned, China being a great example, with several school shootings, but also Canada, Germany, France, Brazil and even Japan has had one...

Are you going to actually argue against what I say or just going to keep picking phrases and putting them out of context in order to try to avoid answering what I said?