Getting down and dirty is where the rubber meets the road ...

OK. Rubber meets the road 101.....

Starting with bar 30. We see bar 31 has a lower high and lower low. It is case B of the 10 cases. We connect the high of bar 30 to the high of bar 31. This is our rtl. We clone the rtl so that it touches the low of either bar 30 or bar 31. In this particular case it appears to touch both.
Seems OK so far.

Bar 32 has a lower high and lower low. It is also case B of the 10 cases.
Options:
1. connect the high of bar 31 to the high of bar 32 and clone to the low of 31 (dashed grey)
2. Fan from the high of bar 30 to the high of bar 32, but we are told in the post above that this is incorrect
3. Neither of the above. Reason: price has closed outside the first rtl that we drew from bar 30 to bar 31. We wait until bar 33 forms and then decide how to annotate.

Answer....
 

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It looks like you guys are working hard at this. Are you turning any of this into actual trading signals and making money with it?

I just don't get it, so I'd be interested in seeing some real proof.
 
Quote from jack hershey:

Right on.

Bar 38 is part of the beginning of the long TF after the bar 37 FTT of the short TF.

We know of the pattern which basically defines all of MADA and the paradigm as a consequence of going through the iterative refinement to complete the paradigm fully and without noise or anomalies.

All FF 1's are unique in their P, V relationship where one price move incorporates two volume moves. The RTL on a TF level is the dividing line of the volume moves.

David's illustration leaves out theRTL of the TF short. were it there, you would see the bar 38 go through the P to T and then the T to P of the FF 1 of the long FF 1.

Why would I expect a PRV that shows both a P to T and a T to P to have increasing volume? for me it is simple, the sentiment change of the market is occuring and the herd is what isnow "pushing" SCT traders to make money. It is a thing that becomes second nature as a person knocks off the trades. the first FF of a pattern goes through decreasing volume to approach the RTL as the members of the herd go through the realization that a tend has ended. they do not see the period of overlap simply by ommission of reasoning. Pring is a classic example of this reticence.

Because we deal in a space slightly ahead of the Present, we are focused on the future coming into the Present. Increasing volume is how dominance forst appears in a new trading pattern.

By doing drills the mind gets built. I can't make that point as yet in this thread. We are still at the "give me the onepager" that explains everything and by the way write down the ATS that is how it works as a footnote.
Thank you for taking the time to explain your reasoning in details. As one would expect the breaking of RTL phenomena and the volume behavior associated with it has been mentioned before on multiple occasions but somehow it managed to evade my recollection even though I was looking right at the chart where bar 38 IS in fact breaking the RTL. Thank you.
 
Quote from dkm:

Could you please elaborate. I still don't see the difference. Thanks
Look comparatively at the situations of #32 and of #39, masking what you see at their right: #32 is and can be an ftt on the first visible fractal. #39 isn't an ftt and can be a pt 2.

You don't have the pace lines drawn, but you can see how because of the low pace one finer fractal became visible.
 

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Quote from charts:

Look comparatively at the situations of #32 and of #39, masking what you see at their right: #32 is and can be an ftt on the first visible fractal. #39 isn't an ftt and can be a pt 2.

You don't have the pace lines drawn, but you can see how because of the low pace one finer fractal became visible.

Thank you for trying to help me here but my question related to the different treatment of the stitch formed by bars 32/33 compared to the stitch at bars 40/41. Both stitches follow a translating bar with a LH and LL. On bars 32/33 we don't fan the ff rtl, and on bars 40/41 I am told that we do fan, to the high of bar 41. I still don't see the difference.
 

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Quote from dkm:

Thank you for trying to help me here but my question related to the different treatment of the stitch formed by bars 32/33 compared to the stitch at bars 40/41. Both stitches follow a translating bar with a LH and LL. On bars 32/33 we don't fan the ff rtl, and on bars 40/41 I am told that we do fan, to the high of bar 41. I still don't see the difference.
The way I see it, the difference appears in real time:

- on #32 you see an ftt and start the non-dom FF of that TF (hold short); next, on #33 you find out that you have a stitch

- on #39 you have a pt 2 of a dom FF; next on #40 you have a FBP and fan; next on #41 a stitch and fan again still part of the same dom FF

In my previous post I sketched the volume gaussians to show that because of the slow pace you can actually see here a finer fractal. I mean that on #33 you see stitch and you can consider fanning the rtl of the first FF, downgrading the #32 ftt to a sub-ftt. The first visible R2R is between #30 and #37.

In conclusion, if you trade ftt to ftt you reverse on #32, then again on #33. If you trade FTT to FTT it doesn't matter. You reverse long on #37 and short on #39 anyway.
 
This is a terrific and well composed viewpoint from you to express where you are and where you are coming from.

we have different viewpoints and orientations. My effort is to go to where you are and suggest how to follow a path to where the Science of PEP and its applications get used pragmatically to make money via the market's instructions to us.

Quote from dkm:

I am assuming that there is a “convention” that must be applied in order to connect a series of bars in accordance with the 10 cases and thereby create FF’s, TF’s and SF’s.

My statement is to use parallelograms to create the P, V pattern which is called B2B 2R 2B or R2R 2B 2R. B and R are colors which are named for direction which is called a vector. Occassionally the 10 cases enter the picture for deciding issues with respect to "adjacent bars", which are a concern of the HS and its PM.

In the above paragraph, please find two rules:

1. Use parallelograms.

2. There is one pattern, use it.


It is apparent, due to the number of errors and inventions on my chart clip that I am not adopting the required convention, even at the most basic level of FF.

You are correct about what you are not doing. Here. we are shifting to what to do. Lierally, and with respect to neuroplasticity, we will build a new resourse for you to use to make parallelograms and to use the pattern. your corrent resourse will remain but it will no longer be your first recourse. By putting what we build infront of what you now have, the new replaces the old.

If it is possible to describe the convention as a simple ruleset then perhaps it would be best to dispense with my poorly annotated chart and describe the convention, case by case.

Yes.

A clean chart for everyone's reference is always a good resourse.

The convention is your term and I will use it. The convention is to build parallelograms fractal by fractal. The rule is to begin with the fastest observable fractal on the insturment traded and annotate thoroughly the pattern on each fractal. Line wieght and colors B and R are used. Some platforms do not allow this.so substitutes are made. In the years ahead, plaforms will have better utility.

ID the points and the FTT's on each fractal to show the parallelogram structure.

The platform chosen can automatically show you the cases in yellow boxes and the lateral can be shown as a blue box since it is often alonger formation.

Volume PACE is shown as a 1600 bar record updated bar by bar. Deciles provide the basis for the six PACES: E, H, M, L DU, and VDU. extremes ae single deciles and non extremes are pairs of deciles. This automatic annotation is for reference and for using in the construction of all distributions of anything in PEP and its applications.

There is NO case by case thing done as part of any part of MADA. What is done is to deal with three types of developments of the parallelograms deployed.

I call these three things: VE's on the LTL (acceleration); expansion (faster observable movements all within parallelograms); and Fanning (adjustments to the RTL's to accomodate borderline activity on the RTL). Logic requires that the three possible cases be handled on equal footing to be sure that the parallelograms are CONSISTENTLY PROCESSED. In this thread I have typed the words for the rules for each of these items. you will find them in your compilation in the three ring binders for the four parts of the infromation classification being used. Gradually, I will make clear by drilling down into the details of each and every trading application on each level of expertese. 2^5 is a way of looking at five levels of refinement to get to having certainty for about anything in PEP and its applications. If I have to, will spell out how critical thinking works to that level of iterative refinement.[/color

If we had a concise and clear description of when and how to connect which ends of each pair of bars, including when to fan and when to accelerate the rtl, I suspect that we would make significantly faster progress.

We do NOT connect which ends of EACH pair of bars; instead, we build parallelograms fractal by fractal and the fractals are interrelated completely and thoroughly by the pattern which emerged from the critical thinking process of devloping the paradigm. Paradigm theory and logic theory are the source of the pattern and why it is the only and unique pattern that exists in markets. The pattern came into being because trends overlap. trends begin their overlap at the point of failure and end their overlap at the point of indepedence and closure of the prior non stationary window of the prior parallelogram's existance.

I am most grateful for your patience and perseverance.


In your post you propsed an inductive solution to trading markets. We are returning to deductive reasoning once again.

What happens when the mind is free to think crtically is that reasoning predominates. It may become clear why the parallelogram was the ONLY geometric shape available to trade usaing market information.

As an aside. The moderator asked for proof of trading prowess of practioners. I'm sure if anyone feels like it they will provide him with what he needs. He may wish to review over a year's postings of trades in a prior thread. Occasionally, in addition, on a few occsions there have be a few provacatuers who have prompted responses at that time with regard to the ES. In ET there was a thrid party verification of a 1,700,000 net profit on one day in 310 trades to exit 100,000 shares of on equity on one occasion. The third party was a broker. As a consequnce of his broker to broker FedEx'ed review of the prints, he reduced his commodities fee schedule by 10% for practioners. That is on the record in ET. My thanks to the moderation for keeping this thread clean of detractors and their inuendo.
 
Hi Jack,

quick verification... In this sentence: "...We do NOT connect which ends of EACH pair of bars..." Did you mean to use the word "each" instead of "which"?

Thanks
 
Quote from frenchfry:

Hi Jack,

quick verification... In this sentence: "...We do NOT connect which ends of EACH pair of bars..." Did you mean to use the word "each" instead of "which"?

Thanks
Jack was simply quoting from my post. My request would have read better if the word WHICH had been used twice:
"If we had a concise and clear description of when and how to connect WHICH ends of WHICH pair of bars, including when to fan and when to accelerate the rtl, I suspect that we would make significantly faster progress." The original text made it sound as though we connect the ends of every pair of bars, which of course, we do not. We begin with two bars, and then the rtl will often get fanned across 3 or more bars, forming a parallelogram. As I understand it, the smallest parallelogram can be 2 bars.

The one pattern that we are looking for is x2x2y2x in the form of b2b2r2b or r2r2b2r. Each of these patterns forms the leg of the next slower fractal e.g. b2b2r2b will form B2B or 2B, r2r2b2r will form R2R or 2R, of the next slower fractal. For example, a B2B2R2B of a TF will be formed by 3 FF patterns b2b2r2b, r2r2b2r, b2b2r2b. The pattern on any fractal can extend e.g. r2r2b2r2b2r2b2r.... etc, providing that price stays inside the parallelogram on the same fractal level.
 
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